How well does Brad represent Muay Thai?

Being a student of Muay Thai for many years now, and having been more than a little dissapointed by Vanessa's representation of the art, I was quite excited when I heard that a fully fledged Muay Thai character was going to be added in VF4: Evolution. I realize Evo was released in arcades quite some time ago, but I've only had the opportunity to play it twice since it's release, and neither time was I in a position to experiment with him, nor did I see any players use him in a knowledgeable fasion.

I was wondering if there is anyone with a background in Muay Thai, or who at least has some respectable understanding of it, who can tell me whether or not Brad captures the overall 'feel' of a Thai-Fighter. I can't seem to find any really good clips of him being used in high-level play /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif (though Goh clips seem abundant) so I've had a hard time sizing him up as a character. In any event, if there's anyone who thinks they can fill me in, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thanks!

 

Well, in one of the interviews with AM2 developers, they talked about how they mo capped like over 200 motions from a muy thai expert and played the game with it and cut it down to the ones that most fit the game. So I assume brad represents the discipline well since it's all real manuevers.
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Oh, I know they motion captured the moves, and I've no doubt that the person from whom they were captured was a more than able martial artist. That doesn't, however, mean that the true afforementioned 'feel' of Muay Thai was captured in Brad's character. He may have the moves, but does his play style reflect that of his (our /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) martial art? That's the question I'm asking.

 

I think his leg kicks are not represented well, nor his front kick/push kick...he is more american kickboxing than mua-thai in that he has a plethora of punches...Thai boxing has horrible hands outside of elbows and some grabs. In the clinch, they usually throw knees to the side (floating) ribs and to the thigh to fuck those areas up, not straight up.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shadowdean said:
Thai boxing has horrible hands outside of elbows and some grabs. In the clinch, they usually throw knees to the side (floating) ribs and to the thigh to fuck those areas up, not straight up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I know. Like I said, I am a student of Muay Thai. I happen to be a fighter, that is to say, competitive. I disagree with your comment about hands, however. Punch rushes are very much a part of Muay Thai, and hands still play a vital part of the match, though in usefulness, are often over-shadowed by kicks, which are farther reaching and harder hitting. How about the clinch? It plays a very large role in MT matches, does Brad have options which reflect that (and no, I don't really mean a throw where he knees them a few times)? Also, how is he at distancing his opponents? In MT there's a lot of control over the distance you keep from your opponents, with front/push/swing kicks to maintain longer distances. Ok... that's the end of that little rant... for now /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

 

Brad can go into a freeform clinch and when he gets there he has the option of using a knee, heavy KD Elbow, and repositioning movements. You can do up to 3 seperate inputs here. Not a major amount of options, but still very nice. Thing to note is as soon as you press P the sequence is over since the elbow knocks your opponent down.

Example of a few sequences:
(Catch) > "Clinch to Elbow Knockdown"
(Catch) > > > "Clinch to Triple Knee Strike"
(Catch) > > > "Clinch to Knee Strike, Backgrund Movement Shift, to KD Elbow"
(Catch) > > > "Clinch to Position Reversal, Foreground Movement Shift, to Knee Knockdown"

Hope this clarifies it a little better for you.

 

oops /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

I don't train in muay thai (only because I never have time to train in an martial art), but I'm a huge fan of muay thai and have as much knowledge of the art as someone who hasn't trained in it could have (which isn't too much /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ).

I think Brad captures muay thai rather well. Honestly, I think he could use a few more mid kicks (I've seen PLENTY of torso-hitting roundhouses and "teeps" in matches). Well, let me not complain...I only say that because his best mid roundhouse is done from +++. He's got elbows, good knee attacks, and of course punches.

The only complaint I'd see someone having is that his movements are pretty "jerky", but that depends on who's playing him. The team hydra vids feature blonde one using Brad, and his movements aren't jerky at all.

All in all, Brad is one of the better muay thai representations in a fighting game. He kills Vanessa's old MT, and he's not goofy like Zack of DoA (decent MT, but he's way too goofy). Imho, Brad's muay thai is only rivaled by Bruce's of the tekken series. Sometimes when some people play Brad (like I said earlier) his movements seem too "jerky" to me, but that really depends on who's using him.

If you have aol, I'd gladly share some of my Brad clips, but I'll be away from my computer for about 2 weeks, so give me some time. My aol name is mewantchili.

Oh, forgot about the clinch. It's already been summed up, but let me say that this is the best MT clinch in a fighter yet. It's not some preset crud, it allows for some creativity.

 

I'd already checked the dojo, Myke, and though it was great material on him, but it doesn't really answer most of the questions I had. Ok, so he does have a clinch, but with severely limited options. What about his kicks? Does he have fast kicks capable of keeping the opponent at long range, or is there too much risk involved for it to be worth using them? In my experience, a MT match usually follows this kind of pattern:<ul type="square">[*]Poking/testing your opponent with speedy kicks and jabs (as well as the occasional power kick, to keep them on their toes) while looking for a weak spot or an opening
[*]Finding the opening, then quickly closing the gap and causing as much damage as possible in as short an amount of time as possible with punches, elbows, and knees. [*]After the rushdown, initiating a clinch and squeezing in as many knees as possible before being seperated by the ref. (which, of course, won't happen in VF /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif).
[/list]
If you are the one who showed the opening, and the opponent starts to close the gap, a quick push (front) kick should push your opponent back out of range (such kicks have a great deal of power behind them, but have very little potential to deal actual damage).

This is just a basic look at the 'flow' of most Muay Thai fights. Does Brad play like this at all (I realize that this is a very general description, but I'm curious /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)?

 

To answer your questions (man...didn't know it mattered to you so much /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif...that's okay...I love MT too)...keep in mind this is what I get from watching videos...haven't had a chance to play evo except for one day (shgl closed down /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif ).

- His kicks aren't the fastest, but they are quick. He's got good range on most of them, and some seem to have good enough recovery to keep an opponent at bay.

- He is a good poker...he has to be to hang with the rest of the vf chars. Even Jeff has some moves to poke around with while waiting to deal the big blow. From what I've seen his best pokes are , + (duh), and his (the teep) seems to be a decent poke for opponents out of reach of your .

- His power kicks are fast enough for you to punish your opponent for doing something stupid at an outside fighting range. If I am correct on notation (Myke check me on this one), his + is sort of a "lunging" mid hitting elbow, which is perfect for punishing mistakes and whiffed moves. Follow up with and you cut an elbow uppercutt, which will connect if the first one connects...I think. So he can punish well.

- The clinch isn't so easy (and throwing a sharp opponent isn't easy for any character). You have about 6 attacks from which you can initiate the clinch (it's not a standard throw /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif ), and most of them only work on a counter-hit. It seems that , +, into clinch is the best option, but I'm not sure how well it works. The clinch is good, but using it by itself won't get you good damage.

- He does have a front push kick.... It doesn't cause mad damage, but it appears to be good for usage as you described. Because I don't know if it puts you at a serious frame disadvantage, Myke would probably be the one you want to answer this one (I hope it's safe to use more often.)

- Of course, it's hard to tell if he follows the 'flow' of a muay thai fight if he's not fighting another thai fighter. Again, I think he's a pretty accurate representation (from the 2 times I got to use him /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif ), but you and I are different. The only way you can really be sure is to either watch some vids, or more importantly, play him for yourself (when you do finally get a chance to).

Now if you excuse me...I've got a final to study for (damnit /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif )

And in case you were wondering...there are leg kicks. One's at the end of a string (), one is+ (for busting out a quick low kick), and another more powerful but slightly slower one is ++. Those are the ones I know of. Not much, but how many low kicks does one really need?

And one last thing. Myke: for the neck catch throw moves that don't have to be a counterhit...can Brad initiate the catch off of a guarded move, or must the last move connect?

 

Well, nitpicking, he does not throw his leg kicks with reall conviction, IE - he does not really put his entire body into it...Thai boxers turn over their hips and shoulders before throwing a power leg kick...the animation shows more or less all the actions happening at the same time.

 

Wait, no pivot? So he doesn't apply full power in his swing-kicks? What good is a Thai Boxer who only uses fast swings!? You have to use the power ones! It (the power swing-kick) is one of the most important technical aspects of MT!
/versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Does the damage he does at least reflect the power behind a fully-fledged swing?

Oh, and afroconnexion, the push kick shouldn't do much damage, but I should give the opponent a violent shove back, so it sounds like that one was done about right.

 

I think it's too much to ask that any of the characters represent their art well and keep the game VF (or keep the game fun).

What I mean is that you're sure to be disappointed if you want to look at brad's overall feel rather than looking at individual strikes and animations. That's because every character's overall VF game turns out to be reliant on certain unbelievable/fake-looking moves like squatting punches, lunging snap kicks, somersaults, ankle pecks, etc.

Looking at it from another perspective though, almost none of the brad moves I've seen look weird and implausible and fake, they look like generic and realistic kicks to the shins, ribs, and head... or generic elbows to the head, chest, and gut. The spinning stuff his crescent and low crescent seem a little out of place though, as does the running, lunging aerial knee.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

The only comment I'll make for now is that , while used on it's own isn't that great, but your opponent should be wary of trying to counter you after guarding it because you have a followup which you can use to interrupt any high/mid attack they try.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take your word for it, but I still want to know. What's the frame advantage/disadvantage for the on guard and regular hit? Also, what's the frame advantage/disadvantage for the follow-up moves to that?

That kick seemed like it would be an excellent poke, and now I'm going to have to keep telling myself "stop using that before you start catching elbows".

I agree with you though Myke. Brad is definitely one of the better, more "realistic" MT characters yet. I haven't played Ehrgeiz, so I can't rate Naseem, but I thought Tekken Tag's Bruce was pretty good. Even though he was damn cheesy...

Anyway...back to the books...maybe I should unplug my computer /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

No, he has some moves that pivot...at least from what I have beent trained in MT kicks (which I hve learned more in the relm of full contact and are used to set up opportunities for take downs or to set up other things) even a lighter power kick might be used to buck the opponent to set up elbow strikes....overall though, I think its a decent representation..

 

Yeah, sorry about my description of a Muay Thai match there. I suppose that was really how your average VF match flows as well /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. Thanks for the input, from all of you, I'm starting to get a much better idea of how Brad plays.

BTW: Myke, I've tryed to d/l those movies which you link to in the Brad Dojo, but I seem to be unable to aquire them. Maybe I'll PM you about it later on, since this isn't my computer right now anyways /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

(Oh, and Shadowdean, what is your martial art? Since you meantioned it, I'm curious. Simply MMA/Vale Tudo?)

 

My original background is about 10 years of TKD...then 3 years of a rare vietnames martial art, 2 years of BJJ/Kickboxing (that was working privately with a friend), about 2 years of capoeira angola, 1 year of boxing and about a little bit of Goju-ryu from working with a friend.