How's the balance in EVO?

We just got the game today in CO, but I haven't checked it out yet. But I was wondering if the game is a lot more balanced than in version C of VF4? In that Shun and Pai, and even Aoi weren't as deadly as they should be, and Jacky and Lau were crazy powerful. Is the game more equal now were Shun can actually compete evenly with everyone else, and Jacky and Lau aren' t the best with powerful and overpowering moves and combos? Or is one or a few characters noticably better than everyone else?

From vids it looks like the game is a lot more balanced this time out, but I can't really tell for sure.

 

Play it and find out, ..... (a privelage *some* people can't have...)

 

Pai was pretty mean in Ver. C -- just had to know how to use her. Shun & Aoi as well, but required a bit more tricks, IMHO. Anyways, everyone has been jacked up. Wolf is apparantly weaker, but you've just got to adapt. He seems amply strong to me.

Jacky & Lau are still stupid powerful (Jacky being WAY too jacked up IMHO - more than Ver. C), requiring much less than finesse to be effective.

 

I'm gonna moan and say Kage gets the short straw again /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Wolf is strong, like has been said, you need to adapt a litte.

I disagree about Jacky, I don't think he's as tough as VerB/C, he's still a good character, just now as brutal, which could be one of the reasons a lot of Jerkys are becoming Brads /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Akira, eh...I'm sorry did I just lose that much off my bar, I think someone forgot to adjust the damage system for his combos, everything he hits you with seems to show big red rectagular blocks!

Jeffry is still good, strong damage potential, strong throws (no matter what ice-9 says), b+P...P mix-ups, guard stagger from threat stance, low unblockable...yada,yada,yada

Brad and Goh, early days, no one knows how top fight them poperly here yet, but Goh is the harder of the two in my opionon to fight cos he has so many good sabakis, throws, low throws, ground throws etc.

Pai...seems very powerful, no one has tried her here yet...but we will.

Shun. Is it me or does he now need to rely so much on drinks at the begining of a round? He's seems jacked up from the word go, and than gets stronger the longer the match lasts. It's funny how if you go down to the wire, y'know 2 rounds all last round decider, Shun will probably win cause he's like super charged up!

Vanessa still seems tight and still has those super sabakis (best in the game).

Lei-Fei is as trick as ever, pity they didn't improve his throw game a bit.

er that's all I can think of for now, anyone else have any opionions?

 

Ok... Here's my take on character power and balance in EVO. I'm only going to comment on the characters that get played around here -- no sense talking about Vanessa or Lei-Fei when I know jack about them in EVO.

Wolf: definitely no weaker than he was in C. But, he is remarkably different -- old Wolf players (like GE) just had to to abit more adapting than people who played other characters. Wolf is still a powerhouse in EVO.

Pai: for those who think Pai was weak in C, I have to say that you probably didn't play a high-level Pai on a regular basis (like Llan's Pai). She was a monster in C. The problem with PAi in EVO, is that she is even more powerful -- Llan's Pai has even more trick, mind games, and powerful combos to draw on in EVO. Definitely a power up in EVO.

Akira: I have to agree with uk-guy. Akira's combos seem to take off way too much damage now. In C, you could get big damage with shoulder-P-shoulder-DbPm. But now every combo seems to take off that kind of damage. Akira is a big pig in EVO.

Jeff: excellent changes to him in EVO. Nice animations, more variety in his attacks, and he still has a strong throwing game.

Kage: Llan and I play around with Kage quite a bit in EVO. Niether of us use him as a primary, or even a secondary, but we do use him enough to comment. I have to say that I think he is more fun to play in EVO, I don't think he was really powered up at all -- sorry uk-guy On a side note I have a hell-of-a time shinsodaning now that they've changed the first roll to be roll+P. For some reason I can't wrap my head around that and I just windup sending poor Kage into some kind of seizure as I try and make him roll with using P.

Lion: I think lion got a lot more tricky in EVO. At first I was disappointed that they removed his b+PPK combo since I used the spinning elbows (the b+PP part) quite a bit. -- but, I find the replacment even better. I also love the FC,f+P+K two handed super push poke -- and excellent move for making a bit of space when you think the tides are begining to turn against you. All in all I think Lion got a bit of a boost (which is a good thing for him, he needed it).

Goh: Goh quickly became my primary character -- I think he is very powerful. He can do lots of damage with his throws, and has several demoralizing games he can play (like punishing techers with d|u+K+G then going for the ground throw). He's not much of a combos character. b,f+P only combos on MC (unlike Akira's and Lau's) -- shoulder doesn't float. His only real float tool b+P+K, takes forever to come out. So, I believe he is very much a Throwing character -- more so than Jeff or Wolf.

Brad: He gets used a bit by some of the TO players. I find him trick to fight . He has good combos but poor throws.

Sarah: Reno plays Sarah -- and when ever he does she seems to clean my clock. He tells me she's changed a lot in use -- but she looks the same on the recieving end

Overall I think it comes down like this (note: this is just my opinion at the moment and it's subject to change )

The powerful:
Akira -- major boost
Lau -- powered up
Jacky -- always among the powerful characters
Wolf, Jeff, Goh -- I've always thought the throwers are powerful
Pai -- yes, I think she got a good boost, and in the right hands is scary.

The contenders:
Lion -- is f,db+P+GPPP really worth the trouble?
Brad -- good combos , haven't really seen him in expert hands yet.
Sarah -- Reno will have more trouble when people come to grips with her.
Kage -- like I said more interesting but not more powerful.

No comment
Vanessa -- although Llany kick my ass with her for 3 games when he chose her by accident the other day.
Lei -- What can I say... Maybe Plasma with start playing him in EVO and then I can for some sort of opinion.



cheers,
kbcat

 

From what I hear, the biggest changes for Sarah (aside from combos, which are surprisingly different) are the low flamingo starter and the new command for dragon cannon - instead of - to go with its ducking-under-high-hits thing.

 

actually,

they tone down Vanessa (DS) a LOT, god knows why.

Her b,f+k,p sabaki no longers sabaki knee and the P is
linear, and Vanessa is a disadvantage when blocked. Hey
those are BIG minuses from Ver C...

She lost her p+k,p for another stupid move. The second P
becomes linear and no advantage when block and normal high...

She lost two throws which is very impt too...

her d/f+p cannot chain second P....

common TELL me something that they gave Vanessa (DS) to
compensate for all these.... Everyone else has some cool
moves but if you looked at the Vanessa's movies... it
is basically the same old DS moves with weakened properties.

 

Kage : i agree that kage got the short draw compared to say..shun, pai, akira (life bar eater..pig) Though i must say..his side kick rocks! hmmm...oh yeah..his side kick rocks!


Wolf : I've been saying from day one..wolf is hella strong..strangely enuff..some ppl still needs convincing~ (hang on..i said pai was strong in ver C..did anyone listen? /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif )

Pai : much easier for her to be effective...back then comments for pai kinda look something along the lines of ' use her speed to confuse opponents'...but in evo, she REALLY has the speed in execution n recovery~

Sarah : up goes the ranking for her...(as if being one of the top in ver C wasn't enuff haha!)

Jacky : I would say...he's not at 'effective' as b4 in terms of the level games...he's still strong..but it's just that somehow..sega has managed to done the unthinkable n sucked the fun outta him in evo. Lack of variations for jacky players to play with. For example, if u look at all the clips online or look at footage from dvd n tapes..a funny trend emerges...all jacky players do is use his 'punch' moves...very rarely do they actually do a command that shows jacky doing something with his leg....

I think that's the main reasons why ppl (including urs truly) are dropping him for brad n goh.

JUDO IS MUTEKI!~

Ahem~

Lei : imo, this noisy monk is powered up.

Shun : he's definitely powered up..no arguments there..anyone that thinks he is remotely weak has to be blind...has be to blind...blind..blind..blind

All i want in ver B is for them to tone down the damage..it's rather insane at the moment...evade, bodycheck = 50%...crap~

Oh, plz make Jacky a fun character to play with again~

 

Er.. the throws are all still there. Just in OS.

You still see people who play exceptionally well in DS, but ever since Evo more people have been making the use of both stances. Each stance makes up for the drawbacks of the other, and she feels like a more "whole" character. I think that's what Sega wanted Vanessa play to become more like, and they succeeded.

There's still lots of opponents who have no idea how to handle OS at all. Bonus points for us. XD

 

actually,
in ver B, both OS and DS is pretty balanced. In Japan there are many good players that use DS but OS is also very strong. But they really killed OS in ver C so almost everyone (at least in the movies) used DS.

Now they decided to make DS weaker to make OS and DS more balanced??? Common, Vanessa DS was not the strongest character by far, why make her weaker when everyone got stronger? Hey I just saw this combo by Akira on Goh in the Greenbook DVD, the new knee (MC), p, Shrm, double kick. Took HUGE HUGE damage on a mid weight...

I have no qualms about giving Vanessa a new OS but why in the world did they make DS weaker?

Of course in the hands of a good player DS is still strong but not as good as last time.

 

Something I wrote some time ago but hadn't posted:

-----

Well, I thought it was already quite balanced in Version C. The challenge in Evo was maintaining that balance while adding new stuff and two new characters. Overall, the balance still feels good.

My quick thoughts (+ better for most people, ~ about the same, and - seems weaker):

Akira: +
I think his damage potential is the same, if not slightly weakened. Before in Version C all he ever needed was shoulder ram; now in Evo it makes more sense to use Yoho and knee. The thing to remember is that Akira always had Yoho and knee in VF4, and with about the same damage potential. His throw game got slightly weakened (it's hella hard to struggle out of the ST single palm) but Akira is compensated with more variety in attacks. Akira's SPOD and inashi got toned down, but his single palm-SDE is fantastic.

Pai: +
Improved in almost every way. Her throws inflict less direct damage, but with good yomi Pai can take off even more damage. Spotlite's argument about AM2 making Akira a more yomi-based and varied character is better applied to Pai. Her has become a really useful move.

Lau: ~
Weakened elbow-palm hurts more than I thought it would, but slight upgrade in throws and combo ability compensates. + a key addition. Stance seems OK...good but not overtly powerful.

Wolf: ~
Throwing game much better with +. Lost easy knee but compensated with very powerful sabaki. AM2 continues the trend of making Wolf a difficult character to use but dangerous in the right hands. Hiro describes Wolf as a powerful F1 engine; hard to control, but powerful when guided by a skillful driver.

Jeffry: -
Not as easy to win with as Version C, some imagination and good flow now required. Throwing game weaker but strikes generally better. Easier ways to get into stance make it more useful. + hit throw his best addition.

Kage: ~
Relatively less powerful on paper, weakened throwing game, but about the same in practice. Slow JM canceling hurts most for me, but most Kages don't care about it much. The upper is not as good as the chop, but changes in the kageyaiba command makes it more practical to use. + addition and JM canceling moves (i.e. JM + hold) compensate for what's taken away.

Sarah: +
Slightly better throwing game and more ways to get into Flamingo. I'm sure she got weakened somehwere somehow, but she seems better in almost every way.

Jacky: -
I haven't looked at Jacky much, but he definitely seems worse than he did in Version C. His key VF4 moves are weakened: beatknuckle a big downgrade; linear; "back-knuckle" from "elbow" linear; an inferior version of knee; etc. I wasn't surprised at all to see former Jacky players move to other characters. He is still competitive, obviously, but Summers puts it well: he's just doesn't seem as fun to play with any more.

Shun: +
Wow, seems better in every way. Throwing game got a big upgrade. Really useful new moves. Key moves from Version C still great. I'm frankly surprised Shun didn't make the final rounds of the Heroism tournament, and he gets my early vote for most improved character (though Version B Shun is still his strongest iteration).

Lion: -
His throwing game might seem better, but taking away + evens it out. For smarter players like Chibita who are really good at getting damage from +, Lion's throwing game is actually worse. His new moves seem OK, but he lost quite a bit in his QCB and + (the latter hurting most, I'm guessing).

Lei Fei: +?
No clue, but I hear he's better.

Vanessa: -?
I haven't played Vanessa yet in Evo except for that one time in Japan, but by watching Vanessa clips and going through a quick overview of her changes, she does seem worse. Her throwing game is worse for DS but better in OS and her take down doesn't compensate for losses in her strikes.

Brad:
Brad is Steve Fox done right; a big congratulations to AM2 for copying a good idea and executing it correctly. Brad seems like an amalgamation of MT Vanessa and Lei Fei on steroids. In some ways Brad is more like MT Vanessa than OS Vanessa. Quick, smooth, good damage potential, and always pressing the nitaku game.

Goh:
Surprisingly easy to play, Goh's strikes are underrated with useful moves that double as sabakis. His throwing game is obviously very good. With all the pre-Evo talk of his being a Tekken rip off, he fits in surprisingly well into the VF universe.

Overall, I do think VF's balance is well kept. There hasn't been a character that I've played that feels underpowered (though I haven't seen or played Vanessa and Lei Fei much yet). I'm very pleasantly surprised at how well AM2 has gotten the balance for Goh and Brad right. In VF2, Lion and Shun were slightly underpowered. In the first iteration of VF3, Taka was too weak against certain characters. In VF4 Vanessa was probably too good. But Evolution is still young--we'll see how balance plays out a year from now.

Add-on: Of course by then we'd be arguing over the balance for Evolution Version B.

 

ice, is wolf's new knee actually a sabaki? what attacks does it work against? /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Sarah, the Good:

New moves like and + are great ways to enter <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color>.

on an MC gives as good a float as and works very well as a filler to her float combos.

is great for heavy weight float combos and nailing crouchers.

+ forces crouch and slams in the air guaranteeing a pounce if you can find the right opportunity as it doesn't combo in floats.

+ is much improved and is now viable.

+ has become viable so that if it hits on an MC +, <font color="pink">FL:</font color> can follow it for heavy damage.

and are great pokes along the lines of .

+ needs some getting use to but otherwise is a fast move with good priority that enters the <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color>.

has been improved so that Sarah is no longer vulnerable and is in fact her only safe combo string.

<font color="pink">FL:</font color> and <font color="pink">FL:</font color>+ have both been made faster and longer.

+ has near instant transition to the <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color> and provides a vast array of possibilities and mind games if you have the finger dexterity.

/+ and the revised + are welcome additions.

+ command change allows for more options when crouching.

Sarah, the Bad:

+ while a good move in itself none the less doesn't float very high at all, which means that beyond light weights you don't have many options.

+ is far too slow. Without some decent spacing you're likely to get knocked out of it.

In general, the lack of Sarah's old + knockdown moves are sorely missed by me, especially her old +. Beyond + and + the only way to get the opponent out of your face is to float them or enter the <font color="pink">Flamingo</font color>.

 

bare_knuckle, I'm talking about ++!

Adio, + changed? Too bad, that was one of her best moves in Version C...

 

oh, ok, i thought there was something wrong there... /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

my bad..

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
+ changed? Too bad, that was one of her best moves in Version C...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the new + is now a variant of her <font color="pink">FL:</font color>+ (which has been improved but compared to the old + doesn't compete). Like an MC + it always allows you to follow the flop it creates with +, <font color="pink">FL:</font color> no matter the opponents weight but, you can see it coming and if they're close enough they can just Sarah out of it.

Making it work is down to spacing and surprising your opponent. Otherwise I have no complaints with it.

 

Whats wrong with Lions ? As far as I can tell its still circular mid.

 

Worse recovery. I've done no research to substantiate this claim (too lazy), but his + seems easily medium P-counterable now, and definitely fast P-counterable.

 

I've noticed Lion hasn't improved much, if at all, while a lot of others got beefed up, so now I think Chibita's win percentage with Lion might not be as good as it was in ver. C. I could be wrong about that, though.

Jacky seems a lot weaker at first, but I think they just changed him to where you can't rely on the same tricks and tactics from ver C. Now he has all new tricks and pokes, and adapting to his new style is key.

What sucks is no one here really plays, so there's no incentive to play this at the arcade. People here rather play T4, SC2, or CvS2.