I am sorry, but you have to realize. . .

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Hyun, Nov 22, 2001.

  1. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    this site at the current state is a joke.

    I am especially sorry for Myke but I want to be blunt. People don't speak out about the sorry state of this site, because most don't care. Those in the know simply go to Virtua Project and stopped caring about what's happening to this site. (Isn't the reason obvious? People don't care what's happening to this site because nothing is happening!) This site might even do more harm than good by occupying VF.com. Those interested in VF4 come to VF.com and find NOTHING. No link. No movelist. Not even news. Just a noise filled forum.

    Okay so movelist is apparently coming. But why such a late duplicated effort when Virtua Project had it and so much more?
    Isn't it ironic everyone BUT VFDC organize the information that comes up in VFDC forum? GLC has FAQ and Virtua Project, FeixaQ, Rich, CreeD all have been organizing information. Everyone but this site.

    This site supposedly never had real "link" section, because, I loosely quote, there is no need for any other English language VF site. UHHHHHHHHH RIGHT. I don't even feel like commenting how absurd this is, especially given the current state of this site. If you have more important things in your life than running a video game site, that's perfectly understandable. But if so, the least this site should have is a link section to sites where the webmasters actually care about content.

    Flames welcome.
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Thankyou very much Hyun for that inciteful contribution. Really.

    Just who is VFDC anyway? You speak of VFDC like some tangible entity, just sitting idle and refusing to do anything productive. For someone who disappears (or lurks, whatever) from the scene for a long time, only to come back and complain about the state it's in takes a lot of nerve. It's like leaving home for a year and then returning to find your room in the same mess it was when you left, and then complain to your mother for not cleaning it for you.

    So let me ask you again, who is VFDC? You speak of VFDC and the likes of GLC, FeixaQ, Rich, CreeD like they're mutually exclusive from VFDC. You just don't get it.

    VirtuaProject and VF4fx are great sites, and I have nothing but praise and appreciation for the niche they've filled in the online community. We all know that content has been sorely lacking from this site for a long while now, and I'm personally doing my best to have this rectified. I have no intention of duplicating anyone efforts either. VP didn't exactly invent the concept of movelists you know, and I have something special planned for VFDC movelists, so if you don't mind, just shut the fuck up and wait until you see it before you start critisizing.

    What has held this site, and I dare say, the online community together for the past 2 years has been the forum. As much noise as it attracts, there is a wealth of information, stories, entertaining flames, etc buried in there. It has been the primary channel for communications amongst English speaking VFers. With VF4 having more exposure in the arcades, we're starting to see the flow of information again, and I think now is a good time to be a VFer.

    After all the hard work I put into releasing the VF3 section, your opening remark is "this site ... is a joke." Ultimately, the choice is yours. You either (a) put up with what's here, (b) offer to help, or (c) go elsewhere.
  3. Bronze Parrot

    Bronze Parrot Well-Known Member

    FWIW, substantial materials that I plan to add to the VF4 Pai FAQ, whether they are about useful combos or useless poses, are posted in the VFDC for other VF4 players' preview and feedback, before I actually add them to the FAQ and publicly update the FAQ.

    Else, I'm mostly a lurker in the VFDC, if because I know I'm a very annoying Netter, and I'm getting too old for unjustified flame-baiting.
  4. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    Well said myke! Hyun you should try to help before you critisize or dont critisize at all. Hyun did you ever think what if no one were to pick up the effort to make a good vf.com?? What if no one wanted too? You think people dont care, but seriously what if no one had the time? Who could you possibly give vf.com too that would have the time to do it justice? If you know of anyone please let us know! Myke has been doing an amazing job as it is maintaining the site.

    VP also exisits primarily because of the forum and basically is nothing more than a movelist, a combo section, and a forum. Its hardly something like tekken zaibatsu or shoryuken.com which it may become and what you probably think vf.com should be.

  5. Rugal

    Rugal Well-Known Member

    I think alot of it comes down to the fact that the VF series isn't very popular in western countries.
    This means you don't get as many views, or contributors as you would if the site was about that piece of shit game, Tekken.
  6. MADrox

    MADrox Well-Known Member

    I do have one criticism.
    Adam says that myke has done a good job at maintaining this site, I think he's being too much Bobby Brady the hall monitor with the MB.
    He is conforming me to act civilized when this is not who I am .Everyone at work knows this. Yet he can you the F word and I can't post my non-swearing observations of how my life in VF is related to my life with SEX.
    This is my only problem here, conformity be like every other adult on this site. :-(

    Other than that,
    Hyun, it is pretty balsy to come up with those comments.
    I think these guys have tried hard for all these years compared to other sites. The sites you mention are new and run by fans. But this site , I view as the mother of those sites , old-school and the core. the others are branches and offer minor things that this site doesn't.
    Anyway, can you guys protest for me and others like me? I need to be let loose.

  7. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    The sites you mention are new and run by fans

    for the record:
    I just have to say that I've been maintaining a VF movelist site since the begining of VF2 on the webspace alotted to me by my university (it was "Firestarter's VF2 movelist"), and it was morphed to "VirtuaProject" at the begining of VF3 and placed on the webspace given to me by my home ISP. The current version is the first time I've bothered to arrange real hosting with a domain name, etc. So, I've been maintaining a VF site long before VFDC.

    my opinion:
    VFDC has done a great job of being the hub of the online VF NA community since the fall of RGVA. Ice and Myke have done a good job with the site, and I have no doubt that VFDC will continue to be the hub of the community. Hyun was just being vicious for no reason.

    kbcat (note: I'm even thanked in the original VF1 FAQ)
  8. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    Myke, what you don't get is that you are confirming that VF community is such an inbred entity and will continue to do so, and VFDC IS a hub of that inbred entity. Let me try to clarify what I mean. In Japan, for example, street signs are hard to find and address scheme makes little logical sense. So those outside from the town/neighborhood have great difficulty finding places. Some say this reflects Japan's outsider/insider culture. Those inside know how to find their way around. Those outside are simply out of concern. I think there is some truth in there. Even in Boston some say the idea is there. It's difficult for someone outside from Boston to find his/her way around in Boston and even signs are scarce. Many in Boston lived around for hundreds of years (long time in American sense) and developed insider/outsider culture.

    So, do you see where I am going? VFDC and forum itself is like streets of Tokyo and Boston. Difficult for outsiders. And no one cares just the same way "insiders" in Tokyo and Boston don't care if the outsiders can find their way around. We know we can go to VirtuaProject to find better organized info when we need it. And we hardly care if people can find their way around to VirtuaProject. Again, Insider/Outsider/Inbred culture.

    I have been around way back when home of VF page was around. That was way back in the dinosaur age when Mosaic was the prefered web browser. Even then that page had so much better organization and wealth of easy to find information, not to mention friendly to the newbies. If you don't realize that this site is a prime example of the insider/outsider culture then that's further proof you are used to this culture, just the way the people in Japan don't care/realize about messed up address scheme.

    I must be blunt again and declare: As far as being the "major hub" of VF activity, this site is the worst site compared to what went before it. The only reason this site became the major hub is because of the demise of rec.game.video.arcade and and credit must go to Myke too for putting work into this forum. And also, there was so little demand for VF3 information might also have a lot to do about the state of VF sites in general. I am not here to please anybody I frankly doubt I would be seeing many people here again. If I see people, yeah, just like everyone else I will start behaving once I am in people's punching distance. I know for fact people badmouth other people off-site when they are with their close circle. And this site itself is no exception. But after my own share of complaining/badmouthing off-line, I decided to do this on-line. I am no more vicious than the opinions that have been around. I don't hope to ever see Tekken Zaibutsu of VF. But at least I wish we had something like Home of VF back. And still the matter of the fact is, people are willing to post here but people don't care about the site itself. You can't just ignore the distinction.

    Again flames are welcome.
    But actual consideration and deliberation is more welcome. Or just put a link section and I will stop complaining.
  9. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    "Inbred"...?! I think you have gone too far with that remark. It's all well to wish the site to be better than it is, and if you have an idea I'm sure your view would have been respected until this debacle. With regard to this "Insider" issue, you're mistaken. I only joined in July and while I wasn't welcomed with open arms my views were acknowledged according to the calibre of my issues. Though, if you ask foolish questions that have no real answer then you are asking for it.

    Yes, there are some people who should wash their virtual mouths out with soap but this being a diverse forum it's an unwritten law to grow a tough shell.

    I for one think this forum produces many juicy bits of info if you can read between the lines. And if you bothered to keep an eye on the other parts of the site you would see that Myke has been working on an in depth VF3 section, surely a VF4 section will follow. Many people who use VFDC also use Virtua Project and VF4FX. Because these sites are close many (including myself) use them as their resource for game info. There's nothing wrong with visiting multiple sites.

    For someone who I see giving little to the site I can't imagine where you got the balls to insult the general populace. When you upload in-depth FAQ's, movie clips and give key points on characters from your experience playing Virtua Fighter on this site then I'd gladly listen to your rants.

    Otherwise, please keep your petty comments to yourself. And yes, I do see the irony in asking you to piss off on an open message board.
  10. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    Adio, you are again another proof about the nature of this site. Okay maybe "inbred" is not the most euphemistic way to put it. Perhaps I should have used a more euphemistic word. But let me cite another example. If you ask for direction in a Japanese street people would be helpful. That's good but why not make street signs in the first place? This kind of culture can wear a face of hospitality (think of famous "Southern Hospitality" in the US. While in the reality the southerners can be less accomodating to outsiders in deep down.)

    Basically you are saying that I should contribute or forfeit rights to criticize. That may sound like an okay statement (the famouse "Ask not what your country can do for you. . ." what's truly the logic behind that statement? It basically boils down to "become an insider or shut up." And I am not complaining about the forum per se. It will always have noise and there are many knowledgeable posters. I am complaining about the site itself. Again distinction must be made unless this site intends to go the way of hardcoregaming.com. (Which it shouldn't given its domain name.) Also, this I said before but Jeff had this fantasy that if he just set up the site and pay for it people will flock to work on the site itself. This is a fantasy. Nobody is going to put up more effort than the leader unless it's somekind of military organization. If webmaster doesn't care about update nobody will. This is something no amount of posting on the forum will change.

    You even say you have to "read between the lines" to get information out of this site. Again, why not put up the street signs in the first place? How would someone learn about Virtua Project without wading through the posts? Again, you said nothing to dispute this site represents insider/outsider culture.

    You know, Peter and CreeD actually long time ago talked about diplomatic way of making complaints. I remember them clearly and they make a lot of sense. I followed none of them this time. Perhaps I just wanted to see what the rebuttals are. So far I haven't heard anything convincing.
  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Good points all around, but ultimately Hyun, if you want change, you must ask yourself why you yourself am not effecting that change. Unless you lift a finger to make this awesome VF site that you have in your mind, you can not expect others to. And don`t tell me you`re no longer good in VF; there`s no skill or knowledge required to compile a movelist or run Japanese websites through Babelfish.

    There`s this myth that the old VF.com had no content. I just want to take this moment to maybe compare THOVF and the old VFDC. THOVF had the VF documents from GameFAQs, a forum...and that`s it. VFDC did not have the documents from GameFAQs, but it did have a comprehensive system document, extensive movies of ura and combos for nearly every character, and gameplay articles and original content that you could not find anywhere else...in English at least. There was a lot of stuff written just for VFDC. So, while the old VFDC may not have been the "ultimate" VF site, it was still a pretty decent VF3 site.
  12. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    Jeff, I knew you have heard these points before and I agree that if nobody make change nothing change. And I say this: I don't make movelist for the same reason you haven't made one yourself. Again, by your own account it takes no skill to make movelist then why haven't you? You not having access to VF4 certainly is not an excuse is it? Actually, if I was given a responsibility about this site (like you and Myke) I would have made a movelist long time ago. But I decided to accept no such responsibility and that's my choice.

    I guess I was somewhat upset with other posters and Myke as well. Myke for long time seemed to have thought as long as he works on the forum he can leave the rest of the site as it is. That was my impression and I could be wrong. (And what's curious is that if Myke decided to put that VF3 update after he saw my post in the Jamboree board. I don't expect to find out the answer though.) I also have some problem with other posters as well. They take effort to post something and then proceed to engage in trivial topics without actually caring about if those info will be available in origanized manner. It's kinda like me posting lengthy philosophical drivel in HGMB. I do that because i really write those posts for myself and not other people. When I voice political opinion I would like for more people to see, but travelogue and philosophical opinion I don't care too much if more people see my post. But at least I know, that to have more exposure for this info you need to do something more than posting in a noise filled forum. But most posters don't seem to care about that and that bothers me somewhat.
  13. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Hyun, I don't think the problem is the attitude of the site owner. You make it sound like he doesn't want to make the site more than just a message board. He wants the site to have a FAQ section, he wants it to have an IRC section, and he wants it to have a Media section. Look at the top of your screen and you can see links to all those sections. The problem is not that there aren't any street signs. In fact the signs are all there. A newbie who comes in for the first time looking for movies will see right away where to go - media. The problem is that there aren't any streets.
    I guess my point is this - VFDC sucks NOW, but Myke is working on it The appearance of the VF3 section is proof of that. I think what you don't like is that he's working on it TOO SLOWLY. In your opinion stuff like the media and IRC sections should have been finished a long time ago. Is that correct?
    If that is the problem, then it's only a matter of waiting before it will eventually be ready. In the meantime, I agree that a simple links page would be helpful. For myke not to put a links page up would be like Microsoft not making any products for the Macintosh because it plans on being the only operating system anyway. VFDC might eventually be the only place you need to go for all VF information, but it isn't right now, so until then a quick and discreet links page showing people where VF media and moves lists are would be helpful. That way they don't have to run onto the message board and ask.
    One thing that might help is that I just made the VFDC FAQ, which hopefully will make it so that newbies don't ever have to post questions like "where can I get moves lists?" again. This FAQ is proof that people can contribute to a site on their own, and they should. You can't expect myke to play every character, then write a faq for every character, then make movies of every character, then write moveslists all over again, then write all the HTML for the site, etc etc. Movies, FAQs, and movelist information MUST come from the people who visit the site, it can't come from just Myke, nevermind Jeff.
  14. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    I really have little to add, but the comment about hardcoregaming.com - that was truly a great site that went down the shitter...why did it, because of staff disgruntlements and people just shirking off commitments. I would think, that maybe if the staff here got a bit more formalized and maybe there was a institutional structure, things could go a bit more smoothly. Perhaps having a debate forum or a weekly article, or something...
  15. Bronze Parrot

    Bronze Parrot Well-Known Member

    Re: I am sorry, but you have to realize. . . II

    I tend to consider VFDC as a replacement of r.g.v.a for international VF discussion, and one of the differences between VFDC and r.g.v.a that disappoints me is the lack of compilation and storage of the useful information posted in VFDC. VFDC members have yakked for months and thousands of posts about this VF4 chara's combo or that VF4 chara's strategy, but almost no one has volunteered to edit, archive, and update all those combos and strategies. Then when some new members ask or mention a topic that had been discussed and analysed sometime ago, the old members tell them to Search for those discussion and analysis amongst the thousands of old posts. If some of the old members have volunteered to write chara guides, the old members could have advised the new members to RTFFAQ. If the topics aren't already in the FAQs, then after the new topics are discussed, they can be added to the FAQ. This was the old r.g.v.a way. Even when there is no chara guide, all those combos and strategies could have been collected, edited, archived, and updated at a VF fan page. WRT the three known VF4 FAQs (common, Pai, and Lion), the writers of two of them have quit or are quitting VF4, and the third FAQ hasn't been released.

    I don't go to Korean gamers' Websites, but the Japanese gamers' Websites are IMO very de-centralised. The Japanese gamers don't seem to have game FAQ database Websites, unlike (for instance) the Occidental gamers' GamFAQs.com. Japanese players of fighting games, who have homepages, discuss their chara's strategies in the message boards of their homepages, then post the refined strategies at their homepages, instead of writing a chara guide as a text file, and deposit the text file at a game FAQ database Website. Of course, the Japanese gamers' homepages are linked to other fan pages of the same fighting game, so when a fan page doesn't cover a certain chara, the reader can be directed to another fan page that does. VP.com is apparently set up to archive and update VF4 command lists, strategies, and combos, but I haven't seen any major additions of such materiel yet. No offense to the multiple SysOp and Co-SysOps of VP.com (especially Yupa) though. Maybe they are working very hard behind the scene, in the dark, so correct me if my perception is wrong.
  16. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Re: I am sorry, but you have to realize. . . II

    The movelists at virtuaproject are in constant flux... but following kbcat's long standing rule of not adding a recent changes/update section... (I knew I should have been more persistant on that point back in the Firestarter days...) ;) it may not look like much is changing... in fact kbcat and I are continually correcting mistakes in the movelists and making additions when warranted like Lei's new crane/scorpion stance change motions that Feizaq recently pointed out. We plan on adding more general and basic info with the exodus of GLC's documents, but it will take time. I'm not going to plagarize his work--but I'll gladly copy and paste some of Creed's posts... =)

    The virtuaproject movelists are evolving as we learn what is right and what is a typo in the black book... Now we just have to get Llanfair off his butt and finish the combo lists... =) How many times do you have to test those combos out for your self Llany?

    Re: VFDC
    I like the forums here. At the very least, the discussions do move forward with new info. But Hyun is correct about no link page being readily available. Myke is moving in the right direction by the look of the recently added VF3 section. Hopefully he'll have the time to give VF4 the same treatment in the near future.

    Off and on I've archived some posts that I thought were significant from VFDC and just thrown them all in a log file. It's really just a condensed version of what I think is useful info... but the search function in VFDC has made me lazy compared to what I used to do in RGVA days. I think it would be a worthy project to gather posts about each character and edit them together to make character guides with minimal comments added in by the editor of each guide to clarify or correct mistakes of the original writers. After I finish what's on my plate at virtuaproject right now, I may consider putting a Sarah guide together in this fashion. Hey, we still have about two more years before the next comprehensive Kage guide comes out... =)

    I'll stop rambling now...
  17. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Re: I am sorry, but you have to realize. . . II

    Are you volunteering?
  18. Bronze Parrot

    Bronze Parrot Well-Known Member

    Re: VF4 Sarah FAQ

    ] After I finish what's on my plate at virtuaproject right now, I
    ] may consider putting a Sarah guide together in this fashion.

    If you (eventually) need help with your (considered) VF4 Sarah FAQ, e-mail me. (^_-)
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Again, by your own account it takes no skill to make movelist then why haven't you? You not having access to VF4 certainly is not an excuse is it?

    There are more movelists out there right now than I can point a stick at. What's the big fascination with movelists anyway? Sega's official VF4 site has them. Searching in the forum for them will yield results. GLC's VF4 FAQ was a sticky post here for the longest time. Having a street sign pointing to even more movelists is unecessary spoon feeding IMO. Call that what you will, but as I've already mentioned, VFDC will have it's own movelists with a slight twist in the near future.

    I guess I was somewhat upset with other posters and Myke as well. Myke for long time seemed to have thought as long as he works on the forum he can leave the rest of the site as it is.

    Hyun, in case you've been living under a rock since the beginning of VFDC, I thought I'd just remind you that this site does not officially belong to me. I am in no way obligated to do anything here any more than you are. I stepped up and offered to help with the forum 2 years ago. Why? Because I could, and because it was something that I felt needed to be done. So, please, don't even try to lay some kind of bullshit guilt trip on me.

    That was my impression and I could be wrong. (And what's curious is that if Myke decided to put that VF3 update after he saw my post in the Jamboree board. I don't expect to find out the answer though.)

    You didn't expect an answer, but here's one anyway: Don't flatter yourself! Which post are you referring to anyway? I did a quick search on Hyun in Jamboree only to find your Euro trip arrangements. Anyway, the site update has been long overdue, and I've been constantly posting small updates in the past alluding to it coming soon, and so here it finally is. The VF3 section has laid out the foundation on which VF4 (and the other sections) will be based on.

    Bronze Parrot has coincidently brought up an idea that I was going to suggest shortly (as soon as I had finalised a few things on my side). I had already discussed this with people in private, so I may as well address it here. In short, I would like people to start archiving posts, or sections of posts, relevant to a character. These can then form the basis of a character FAQ which will be available in the character's section, and kept up to date by the archiver. There's nothing wrong with having more than one archiver either, but joint efforts should be coordinated to avoid any uneccessary duplication. Anyway, I will outline this in further detail in a separate post soon.
  20. Bronze Parrot

    Bronze Parrot Well-Known Member

    Re: I am sorry, but you have to realize. . . II

    ] Are you volunteering?

    Yes, I already volunteered (note past tense), and No, I'm one of the two known VF4 FAQ writers who have quit VF4 or are quitting VF4 (note present tense). (-_-;)

    Anyway. I agree with Myke that multiple Netters can be tasked with gathering and coordinating info about each VF4 chara. The more the merrier.

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