I hate Kage/Pai/Sarah

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by K_C, Mar 15, 2002.

  1. K_C

    K_C Well-Known Member

    Hello ppl..i'm not good in VF at all but at least i know enuf not to abuse LP in close combat..takes the fun and the whole point out of the game..
    However, i have been frustrated by players(Kage, Pai, Sarah) who keep doing LPs whenever we are having close combat, they just LP x 547 times, mix up a few elbows and throws and i'm KOed..
    I read in this forum that we can elbow or knee after a LP and i've tried it(close range) but got interuppted by their LP instead..
    Any guys can help me out?
     
  2. BakuBaku

    BakuBaku Well-Known Member

    Everyone can do LP but I mean. Just get used to it and try and not get hit. People do it but I just got used to it and usually end up blocking and just try and hit them with a rising usually. Or a duck throw also works too.
     
  3. K_C

    K_C Well-Known Member

    A duck throw??..i cant throw them since they are crouching when doing multiple LPs..seems like an elbow or knee will only counter when there's sufficient distance btw u and the LPing opponent..
     
  4. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    three ways to deal with low punch:

    -block low and interrupt the next low punch with an elbow (f+P for many characters). You need to react instantly, and even then a slow elbow may be interrupted by another low punch.

    -use one of the moves that ALWAYS beats low punches. There are many.
    examples: Lau's d+P+K. Jeffry's b+K. Shun's u+K. Sarah's u+K+G.

    -reverse low. For akira, wolf, and aoi only - d+P+K.

    oop, there are actually four ways. I almost forgot. Low punch yourself.
    Your low punch, if it hits, may push them far back enough that their next low punch cannot hit. In which case you can interrupt their low punch with an elbow, or else try to low throw them during the recovery of their whiffed attack.
     
  5. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    oop, there are actually four ways. I almost forgot. Low punch yourself.
    Your low punch, if it hits, may push them far back enough that their next low punch cannot hit. In which case you can interrupt their low punch with an elbow, or else try to low throw them during the recovery of their whiffed attack.

    <hr></blockquote>
    But you need to block their low punch first before retaliating. Bottom line really is to remember if you get hit by low punch your opponent has the initiative. So don't get hit (or use a move that will defeat the opponent's next attack despite their frame advantage).

    -Jason
     
  6. mushen

    mushen Well-Known Member

    Ever tried blocking? j/k. You can now block low punch high. After you block, you should be able to counter with a side kick or elbow. I think your just getting MCed all day and that can be very fustrasting.
     
  7. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    I agree completely. I think a lot of the frustration about low punch stems from not distinguishing between situations where you block it or are hit by it. Once you start paying attention and blocking low punch, then retaliating, a lot of the "low punch" is cheap feeling just kind of dissipates.

    -Jason
     
  8. Sausage Man

    Sausage Man Active Member

    Some other options are low punch, then backdash sidekick/low throw. You could just dodge the low punch also. Low punch lacks range, so a little spacing every once in a while will help.
     
  9. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    I think d+P is not the problem but rather the person getting hit by it is at fault.

    Range and Iniative are two things you must consider when attacking and defending.

    At close range it boils down to elbow, low punch/kick, dodge or throw.

    If you're trying a big high or slow medium floating move of some sort you deserve to eat the "d+P" and throw. Because there's nothing stopping you from choosing all the other options that would've beat the "d+P".

    Quoting a particular altercation with my friend last night. Shun vs Lau...

    What he was doing all night:
    D, df+P for float and combo
    d+K+G
    f,d+K
    df+K, f+P
    b.b+P, d+P...
    uf+K+G

    big moves along with semi low risk mid moves with big damage potential general.

    What I was doing:
    d+P
    d+K
    dodge attack
    df+K


    In some way it was cheap .. but on second thought he wasn't presenting any gaps in his defense besides the low and when he did a mid kick.

    If the opponent doesn't block low its fair to low kick him.

    If the opponent does attack that are not throw or punch counterable it fair to use "d+P" to interupt those moves or to poke afterward blocking them.

    There's always an alternative. When he tried to "d+P" me I just used dodge attack or dash out of range and df+K for stagger.

    He wasn't impressed when he lost but he had options.. he chose wrong and I chose correctly.

    "d+P" tactics are necessary but there are risks.
    I know this but do you?
     
  10. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    oop, there are actually four ways. I almost forgot. Low punch yourself.
    Your low punch, if it hits, may push them far back enough that their next low punch cannot hit. In which case you can interrupt their low punch with an elbow, or else try to low throw them during the recovery of their whiffed attack.


    Five ways actually, there are special high attacks in VF4 that will beat low punches, know them and use them effectively.
     
  11. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: I hate d+P

    I think d+P is not the problem but rather the person getting hit by it is at fault.

    Range and Iniative are two things you must consider when attacking and defending.


    This pretty much sums it up. It's a desperate fight for initiative. The advice everyone has given in this thread is rather good. Being the 3rd party in ken's Shun vs Lau match that night, I could watch the game without the burden of having to make split-second decisions each and every encounter. I have to say though, that Shun's d+K is hella annoying!

    Anyway, the problem on that night was that after eating a low attack, the defender tried to regain initiative with brute force, and as you can imagine, was met with more headache time and time again. It's really frustrating to watch, let alone play against, but there are ways around it (see other replies in this thread).

    I'll just offer this snippet from the Blue Book to the thread, although you certainly don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out on your own:

    <ul type="square">[*]After Guarding a d+P, you have enough advantage such that your d+P will interrupt their next attack.
    [*]If you're hit by a d+P (normal hit), then the attacker has enough advantage such that an elbow class attack will interrupt any counter attack from you.
    [*]If you're hit by a d+P (counter hit), then the attacker has enough advantage such that a knee class attack will interrupt any counter attack from you.
    [/list]

    I may be stating the obvious, but coming up with the correct 'reply' to the above three scenarios is what I see a lot of people, including myself, struggle with. If you look at the frames, then you can really see how vulnerable a guarded d+P is:

    I'll use Jacky vs Jacky for the sake of an example, but can be applied to every character (frame stats for d+P and f+P don't vary that much for most characters).

    <ul type="square">[*]d+P takes 12 frames to execute
    [*]d+P has -4 frames (4 frames disadvantage) after Guard
    [*]f+P takes 14 frames to execute[/list]

    So, 1P Jacky does d+P which is guarded. 2P Jacky has 4 frames advantage over 1P Jacky. So if 1P Jacky attempts another d+P while 2P Jacky attempts to counter with f+P, 2P Jacky will win, because his 14 frame Elbow is faster than 1P Jacky's 12 frame d+P because it effectively takes 16 frames to execute when you factor in the 4 frame disadavantage.

    To illustrate this frame-by-frame, where the X's denote the disadvantage frames, you can see that 2P Jacky's Elbow will MC a 1P's second d+P if the first was guarded.

    <pre>
    +---+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+
    | 1P| X| X| X| X| 1| 2| 3| 4| 5| 6| 7| 8| 9|10|11|12|HIT|
    +---+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+

    +---+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+
    | 2P| 1| 2| 3| 4| 5| 6| 7| 8| 9|10|11|12|13|14|HIT|
    +---+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+


    </pre>
     
  12. occu

    occu Member

    All charaters share the 12 frames d+P.
    And all have a move or two can handle that.
    Do take the 4 frames advantage after you block the d+P.
    Check out your favourite charaters' movelist.
     
  13. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    Hi Andy!

    That was me vs Johnny(Lau)...

    Nice to hear from you on this board!
    By the way how is that Lau guide going?

    What's your opinion on the Lau vs Shun issue?

    Lau's "23P", "23PP", "22P", "22PP" is relatively no gap and very fast and high chance of float if I dodge attack or mid attack. If I block those moves Lau has initiative and I have to defend again against 2-3 choice situation. Johnny would then choose to either throw or dash back and repeat or mid-kick stagger and palm then dash back and repeat or low crescent sweep.

    Considering the above I realise that Shun's better moves gives me the following possibilities:

    236P : Too slow, Lau's range and 23P much better and rewarding with less risk. Also my execution of this move was not too great due to stick quality and defensive pressure.

    8K : Same as above, and I'd get punished by the throw after it was blocked.

    7PKG : He mixed in crescent attacks that made staying standing hard as well as making dodging risky.

    6K (stance): I know this is Shun's fastest mid move but the range and options are really limited. Each time he did a 2P he'd crouch dash out of range and I'd be stuck in stance and eat his float or dodge attack for a crumble.

    3K, stagger 2 choice and throw.
    Johnny was throw escaping when he mid kicked me and when he was staggered. He was also controlling his range well by maintaining a distance and not presenting many throw chances or range. Mid-kick vs mid-kick his usually won because of range and Shun's short leg. Or he'd fake and throw me after blocking my mid-kick.

    Interrupting the above moves is much more effective.

    As frustrating for him playing me it was also frustrating for me to play him. My entire game plan was to avoid floats at all costs vs Lau. Knowing that 23P is his primary method of generating a float 2P and 2K is the best way to interrupt that move at close range.

    Even Lau's flying cartwheel kick is only 2P counterable as he can't be thrown and he recovers very quickly. My dodge attack is risky because of its slow execution and throw counterability.

    I still think my low kick and punch strategy is entirely fair because mid attack vs mid attack its too risky. He wasn't changing his attack patterns so neither did I.

    Using a Paper, scissors, rock analogy:
    Paper beats rock, he kept choosing Rock so I'm going to keep choosing Paper.

    The whole room was telling him to do Scissors whether he obviously wasn't listening.

    The rest is history.
     
  14. a_l_e_x

    a_l_e_x Active Member

    Re: I hate d+P

    Thanks, make it very clear.

    However, does it matter if I blocked the d+P standing or crouching? Say, after I stand and blocked a d+P, I want to do a d+P of myself, and the opponent d+P again immediately, so opponent will take 4+12 frame to hit while I only need 12 frame to hit? Or, does it require some frame for me to crouch first before the d+P?

    Also, frame data is the same for d+P and f+P in Ver.B and Ver.C, I assume?
     
  15. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: I hate d+P

    in VF3, d+P from standing was a little worse than d+P from crouch. I think recovery was longer, but exe was the same. It doesn't feel like this is the same in VF4.
     
  16. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: I hate d+P

    What CreeD was trying to say (I think) is that d+P from standing, or crouching, is the same in VF4. The frame data confirms this on all counts (exe, guard, hit, mc).

    So, there's no difference in guarding a d+P while you're crouching or standing.
     
  17. a_l_e_x

    a_l_e_x Active Member

    Re: I hate d+P

    Thanks.
     
  18. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    Re: I hate d+P

    in VF3, d+P from standing was a little worse than d+P from crouch. I think recovery was longer, but exe was the same. It doesn't feel like this is the same in VF4.

    No...its the other way round actually. Execution for "standing" d+p is 6 frames slower than "crouching" d+p, recovery is the same.
    Execution/recovery for d+p is the same in VF4(and VF2 IIRC).
     
  19. ilovejacky

    ilovejacky New Member

    This is off topic but...

    Does anyone have a translation list for the characters' taunts? Where can I get one? Thanks.
     
  20. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: This is off topic but...

    try searching for the user "Bronze Parrot" and sending him a message. If anyone knows, he will.
     

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