Idea: VF4 Easy Mode

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Robyrt, May 4, 2002.

  1. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    One of the things people complain about is that VF moves are too hard (particularly Akira). While changing the movelists as little as possible, how about doing what they did for Lau for every character?

    Rules:
    1. All 270s are now u,uf,f+P+G or u,ub,b+P+G.
    2. All strings are button taps after the first hit. (e.g. Jeff's f+P,b+P, which is now f+PP).
    3. All hit throws are either automatic or can be mashed, and have had directional inputs removed.
    4. All FC moves are now qcf/qcb motions.
    5. b,f,f moves are now just f,f moves.
    6. All hcf/hcb moves are now qcf/qcb moves.

    Exceptions to comply with the movelists:
    1. Kage's FC,f+K is f,d,df+K.
    2. Kage's hcf/hcb roll is intact. (Second/third rolls are qcf motions).
    3. Akira's qcb+P crumple move is now qcb+P+K to make room for the qcb+P doublepalm.
    4. Akira's knee is just K+G.
    5. Aoi's multithrow is qcf/qcb+P+G, d/u+P+G, d/u+P+G. Similarly, Van's wall multi is unchanged.
    6. Jeff's b,f,f+P and b,f,f+P+K are db,f+P and db,f+P+K.

    In particular, I think rule #3 will be a drastic change... the biggest example is the SPoD, which is just P+K+G (since there's no reason to stop after parts 1 or 2). Imagine Akira's knee becoming a reasonable threat... /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  2. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I can't say I like any of your ideas.
    Sega puts a lot of thought into the commands, and that's why you see them change from game to game.

    1. 270's aren't hard to do, but it takes time to enter 3/4ths of a circle, and the time is what keeps them from being too strong. You can't 270 an attack that recovers in 8-9 frames on reflex and hope to land the throw, even tho the 270 technically only has 8 frames of execution.
    2. Sega is sort of moving towards this, look at lau's f+P, P and d/f+P,P,P and P,b+P,P. If there's no reason to make the move hard, then don't, right?
    3. Snort. Sure, sarah has 1423423 useful mids and a couple of throws from flamingo stance, but let's also give her a low kick that does 25% damage as well.
    4.Modified moves are not separate attacks and shouldn't be treated like that.. they're an elegant byproduct of two great concepts from AM2: attacks that require crouching and the ability to crouch dash. The whole point behind FC attacks is that they're moves that are too useful to be accessibly instantly and easily from a standing position, dodge, or dash. Making them FC only means that the moves are still useful, but with the tradeoff of requiring a little time and dexterity to modify them (not to mention the inherent risks of crouching).
    5. Again, 3 or 4 frames minimum exe time ensures that the b,f,f move isn't instantly accessible, you need a little planning to land a b,f,f move. Being able to land akira's bodycheck with f,f+PK or jeff's backbreaker with just f,f+P+G seems a little too easy for the reward.
    6. No real difference. I find that when I enter a SF fireball I actually end up rolling a half circle by accident almost every time anyway.

    1. You need the crouch dash system in there to allow kage to vary the length of C-dashes when he does TFT-knee combos.
    4. knee is difficult mostly as a showoff move, but also because it's the best knee in the game and because akira shouldn't be able to start float combos easily without needing to do a m-move, such as m-shrm.
    SDE is easy but requires five frames to execute if it's not buffered (realistically more)--> f, n, f, n, f+P. One entry per frame.

    Offtopic: One of the reasons akira's SDE seems unbalanced in VF4 compared to 3 - in VF3 you could only easily float the opponent by modifying a move (doing a m-shrm), and it took a little time to do that. Your alternative was to land a MC SDE, but since that's not really a float tool, the float was much lower than the shrm. To do decent damage, you needed to follow the low float with a semi-difficult DLC. Now in VF4, thanks to crumples, SDE still isn't a float combo starter, but you can land easy and damaging combos without the moderate dexterity needed to pull off a DLC. If I were to argue for anything in VF4, I'd argue that some of the simple moves like SDE and f,f+K,K would be made harder. Or a better fix is that the SDE gained more recovery, or f,f+K,K did less damage.
    5. Am I the only guy out there who never ever had trouble with this? You can pick up the timing in a dozen tries. Also you're only listing two parts, are you suggesting taking out the ability to enter three separate parts, which also eliminates the mindgames aoi's multi has?
    6. Maybe it's just me, but that would be harder. I find d/b, f motions awkward.

    -----
    If anyone is complaining about VF moves being too hard, they probably lack the patience to really learn the game anyway. Not much in the game is hard to do, Akira's the only exception. And his stuff is hard for a good reason.
    SPoD is difficult because it's 40% damage from one midlevel strike.
    DLC is difficult because it's about 30% damage for any low float.
    AS3 isn't difficult, but it's maybe 20% damage for scraping the opponent off the floor after a knockdown.

    You get the picture. Sorry to sound critical, but when I see posts like "VF easy mode!" I think it distracts people from the fact there's nothing really wrong with the move system as it is. You might as well post "Idea: Get Rich without Working".
    I don't like the thought of people who are just learning VF thinking "yeah, it's Sega's fault I can't learn this game, the moves are just too damn hard".
     
  3. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    I guess I'm just opposed to having moves be made more difficult because otherwise they'd be too strong. Just for an example, characters like Lau require almost no dexterity to do damage, why does Akira? If he's more powerful than Lau, the solution is to tone him down instead of making the moves more difficult. Since top players (who can easily pull off Akira's stuff) obviously don't rule the tournaments with Akira, it's not really a factor at high levels anyway. Why not make it more user-friendly and be done with it?

    The fireball motions are just my personal preference, I can see how not being able to crouch into them would be annoying. They are theoretically faster to execute than a modified move though /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

    Sega has already made the movelists for characters like Lau and Lion as simple as possible. It's just a reasonable extension to make, say, a DLC be df+K+G,P,P+K. If 270s are supposed to execute slower, make that a framerate issue instead of penalizing people who can't do the motion quickly.

    As for hit throws, (to use the example) Sarah ALREADY has a 25% damage low kick from FL, it just takes a little practice. I hardly ever see FL used anyway, even by people who can do the hit throw reliably. It wouldn't have a noticeable effect on gameplay, and it would make it easier to pick up Sarah... why not?

    These changes would make Akira, Van, etc. a little less satisfying to master, but a lot less time-intensive. If it unbalances the game, then it wasn't really balanced anyway.
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Like Creed, I don't like your ideas!! Though I have different examples.

    Basically, the ease of command of a move is actually balanced by its utility. I.e., when AM2 decides on how to balance a move (execution, recovery, range, etc.), ease of input is one of them.

    (Creed: yes, it's very possible to 270 counter 8-9 frames of recovery...buffer in the commands).

    Yes, Lau's elbow-palm has been simplified. But the elbow palm itself is a lot weaker! Think about it. And while I do think that Lau is the scrub character of choice in VF4, he is hardly all that easy to play at high levels. Why? Because being able to take advantage of stance is critical to a high level Lau.

    If the changes you recommended were put in without other changes in properties, the balance in the game would be thrown completely out of whack.

    Finally, I don't think it's a good idea to make things too simple. People keep playing Akira because they think he's difficult to play and like the challenge of the supposed high learning curve. Peope who consider themselves fighting game enthusiasts often think a reasonably high learning curve as a good thing...these are the people AM2 should try to attract, not the average Joe Gamer off the street who thinks Akira's current knee is too ridiculously difficult to execute. These people will jump ship as soon as the next "BEST FIGHTING GAME EVER!!" comes out.
     
  5. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    These changes would make Akira, Van, etc. a little less satisfying to master, but a lot less time-intensive. If it unbalances the game, then it wasn't really balanced anyway.

    ummmm...that has to be the most illogical procession I've heard in a while. Basically it boils down to this: If I make changes to a well thought out and time proven system and it changes the system then that system is proven faulty.

    The balance is there. The approach to access (easy or hard) creates a product easily definable (easy to use and hard to use based on perceived advantages). the changes (get this, this is the tricky part) change the approach and therefore the product of the game.

    GE
    <font color=white>this too too solid flesh</font color=white>
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    If he's more powerful than Lau, the solution is to tone him down instead of making the moves more difficult. Since top players (who can easily pull off Akira's stuff) obviously don't rule the tournaments with Akira, it's not really a factor at high levels anyway. Why not make it more user-friendly and be done with it?

    Well first, how do you know they don't rule the tournaments?
    I dunno, it's not an issue anyway because the game's balanced enough that guys like chibita can play characters like lion and still kick ass.
    Akira isn't user friendly because every game should have an expert's character who takes more work to master. Akira is that guy, because he's always been Sega's favorite. If you're implying that not being able to pull off 'Akira's stuff' means that he's inaccessible and too tough to win with for a merely average gamer, I beg to differ.
    -Even mukky, arguably Japan's best akira, blows SPoDs once in a while. He doesn't have any problem maintaining 85% win rate tho.
    -He can DLC all day, but do you ever see him do it? No, it's f,f,f+P --> f,f+K,K.
    or d/f+P+K --> f,f+K,K. A small child can do it.

    So think of akira's cool, difficult stuff as "gravy" for people who like to show off.
    Yes Lau can win easily and be mastered without much dexterity, while Akira requires more work, but the point is to offer the option of high and low learning curves. Options = variety = more interesting. Removing the options = tekkenizing. Flattening the learning curve by making every move easy is sort of like curving the grades in a class of 1000 people because 3 dozen whiners said the test was too hard.

    As for hit throws, (to use the example) Sarah ALREADY has a 25% damage low kick from FL, it just takes a little practice. I hardly ever see FL used anyway, even by people who can do the hit throw reliably. It wouldn't have a noticeable effect on gameplay, and it would make it easier to pick up Sarah... why not?

    Again I beg to differ. If your local sarahs aren't using flamingo, I humbly offer that they may not exactly be the cream of the crop. My 25% comment means this: As long as the hit throw has one frame timing, it's not truly a 25% low kick, it's a difficult, 25% attack that has iaigeri-like timing (while a low kick is merely d+K).
    If you make the hit throw mashable, you might as well make the command d+K. Imagine how cheap, stupid, and unfair the game would seem to you if you're playing a sarah who does a dinky, virtually risk-free low kick, and you failed to block it and lost 1/4th of your lifebar?

    These changes would make Akira, Van, etc. a little less satisfying to master, but a lot less time-intensive. If it unbalances the game, then it wasn't really balanced anyway.

    First of all, what do you want out of a game? The ability to master it as quickly as possible, and to hell with satisfaction? What would you rather play, an RPG that can be beaten in 30 hours, has one side quest that's braindead easy, and has mediocre challenge and gameplay? Or an RPG that takes 80 hours to beat, has six side quests, (some of them truly bastardly to complete), and gameplay that's challenging enough that you actually feel a sense of accomplishment from winning?

    Re: your balance comment - you can't be saying that making commands difficult isn't a valid way to tweak fighting game balance. We're playing a video game here. A lot of video games are based on the challenge of being able to control your player more intelligently and precisely than the other guy. If you want simplified commands and want to play a game purely on an intellectual level, to the point where control isn't a factor... go buy a chessboard. If you want chess with reflexes maybe get Warcraft or something. Whatever it is you want to play, it isn't VF.
     
  7. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    (Creed: yes, it's very possible to 270 counter 8-9 frames of recovery...buffer in the commands).

    yeah I wasn't being very clear there. I'm thinking of a situation where you were unprepared for the attack, EG you were just standing and guard, not really sure that an attack was coming, and one did. by the time you react to the blocked move, a frame's already gone by and you're just starting the 270 motion. If you know that the attacks' on the way, you could be buffering the 270 before the move even finishes executing.
     
  8. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    dude..it's all wrong.

    The player is supposed to work for his/her (HI REI!) skills...and for what it's fucking worth..everything is easier to do compared to past series...if anyone still has trouble doing it...

    it's either
    A)lack of practice
    B)cannot do it..simple enuff. (some guys just have trouble pulling off certain moves...others don't)

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Since top players (who can easily pull off Akira's stuff) obviously don't rule the tournaments with Akira

    <hr></blockquote>

    And u would know from what source?

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    As for hit throws, (to use the example) Sarah ALREADY has a 25% damage low kick from FL, it just takes a little practice. I hardly ever see FL used anyway, even by people who can do the hit throw reliably

    <hr></blockquote>

    I'm with creed on this.
     
  9. American_Pai

    American_Pai Well-Known Member

    I gotta agree with everyone else and say "hell no" to your Easy Mode suggestion. Sooner or later in the course of game's lifespan something will come out that will seperate the men from the boys dexterity wise. It could be a combo, a set-up, crazy movement, or some form of option select. Am2 is just getting it out the way early with Akira but eventually it will happen and some characters like Akira need to have hard commands. Akira doesn't get the golden boy treatment in the form of fireball/uppercut motions but he does get golden boy treatment when it comes to mindgames. What character in the history of fighting games attacks create as much confusion and the fucked up situations like Akira's? While other characters have work their ass off for a good mindfuck situations and Akira has them practically given to him on a silver platter. However Am2 knows this so they make him hard to control and they do similar things with other good moves (Stumbling Trip motions). It's all for the greater good of balance and it's also a failsafe mechanism. Just in case Akira is an overpowered pig at least any fool can't pick him and be dangerous. This is the main problem with Tekken 4. TTT was horribly unbalanced but at least it took some respectable skill to break the game unlike Tekken 4 where any knucklehead can pick Jin, Steve, Paul and do the most retarded strategies and win. A little thing like that can make a big difference.
     
  10. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    Robyrt, i'm curious, did you get this idea from the Easy Mode option in capcom's vs. series? cause they had a similar program in the game, enabling you to do specials by tapping buttons rapidly, supers w/only 2 buttons, etc.

    unless if there's going to be a major tone-down for being able to choose this EASY MODE you talk about(like overall lengthening of recovery on akira's moves or something), the idea's not that good. besides, i thought sega was trying to make a fighter that stressed skill; if there's no more skill involved in vf, where will we go for skillful, in-depth fighting games? mvc2?

    btw, it's not a bad idea in of itself, but i'd rather that the vf series go untouched with this stuff; the last thing we need to see are akira scrubs mashing p and rolling the joystick and then going "whoe!!! i did a 3-hit thingamagigee where he ran behind the opponent and pushed him!"
     
  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I disagree with the Easy Mode idea personally... but I did want to make mention that in Virtua Fighter Kids, there was "Kids" mode which basically simplified the controls (to the point where you wouldn't know what move you were doing at times :p)--The game substituted the commands with very very simple ones.

    -Chanchai
     
  12. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    I agree with the ones saying 'no' -- crap Idea. I think they should make OTHER changes, personally, but that's for another thread. :0
     
  13. justaNewbie

    justaNewbie Member

    Like just about everyone else, I'm also against the addition of an Easy mode in VF. Something not mentioned yet is that it would undoubtedly cause a lot of problems with the arcade version.

    If Easy mode became popular with home-console owners, it would create a large audience of sub-par VF players that couldn't play the game like they're supposed to. Then if Easy mode was absent from the VF arcade cabinets, Sega loses out because those people would never put a substantial amount of money/tokens into the machines to play against other people. On the other hand, if Easy mode was incorporated into the arcade versions it would be extremely unfair (and probably cause more than a few game room shouting matches) for a person on a winning streak who put the time/effort into learning the "normal" commands to lose to an opponent who selected Easy mode and Akira...

    The alternative would be to give either the challenger or previous winner control to choose the difficulty mode used by both characters to "even the odds" or simply reduce the amount of damage Easy mode attacks and throws do, but I doubt either would really defuse or lower the occurrence of, errr, potentially disruptive situations. Finding a way to keep matches balanced between players using different difficulty modes would be a nightmare for the developers; definitely more trouble than it's worth.

    On a sidenote, I'm surprised reversals escaped the "dumbing down" the rest of the commands received in the orignal post.
     
  14. agios_katastrof

    agios_katastrof Well-Known Member

    Newbie talk below:

    With the exception of Akira's knee, I think the move inputs are actually ok. A SPoD is a lot easier to do than say, a Zangief FAB. However, I do see some points in the original post. I never thought that learning to do a character's moves to be much fun, or showed true skill. It's the manipulation and the usage of those moves in battle that really indicates skill, imho. I mean, just because I can do a SPoD, doesn't mean I know how to use it.

    I think perhaps keeping the move list as they are, but perhaps allowing a tad bit increase in the timing allowances, may help. Especially with those reversals.
     
  15. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Evil thought pattern Rob! Pure evil. 1. 270's aren't hard to do, but it takes time to enter 3/4ths of a circle, and the time is what keeps them from being too strong. You can't 270 an attack that recovers in 8-9 frames on reflex and hope to land the throw, even though the 270 technically only has 8 frames of execution. wifey plays Van on Pelican stick she dumbs it down with preprogrammed 'easy" stuff like one button for throws, etc. Joe likes to use Lau with R1 and all other triggers performing complicated moves in "easy" mode. I reco only using the three buttons P ,K and G . The arcade machine in version B is pretty darn "masher" friendly. Repeated pp and kk mashes with an occasional g hit to clear buffer allows "mashers" to beat out a drunken brawl type fight with any of several characters. [schocked] It is actually pretty funny when someone dares to challenge at arcade after achieving God status in VF4 PS2 and finds they can not even win a single round without excessive pity/mercy applied by oppos. generally, mercy rounds are only available when an accomplished player sees some potential for battle but has a clear edge in time/rounds/lifebar. Seeing an accomplished Kage spin and run off edge to force suicide RO is funny unless you are the oppo who receives the largess, then it is just embarrassing. TT is masher friendly and allows a deeper array of mindless mashing than VF4. VF4 seems to continue to attract the high GPA math and chess nuts that are seeking a fast, precise and intense central nervous system rush without the risk of incarceration. thx for the cerebral cerebrations. You have started a discussion without resorting to the usual my pee travels faster and further arguments.
     

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