If there was one thing you could modify or add ?

In VF4 & evo, you evade (slow or MC) by popping the lever or & letting it return to neutral. or is a good suggestion over at Zaibatsu (sp?) though /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

 

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Cat Sandwich the Ass Finger said:

The kind of attitude that this conduct is right, is what makes other fighting game fans shun the VF series and its fans.


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Objectively, this is BS. People are responsibile for their own feelings. There is no right or wrong. If someone pounces on you and you get pissed, it's your problem. You got pissed because you wanted to.

Environment has something to do with it (if you've just lost 937 matches in a row, you might be more likely to get pissed) - but you're still in charge of your own feelings.

Actions have consequences. If you pounce on someone that takes offense, they might think you're an ass. But it's still up to them to think that. You did not, in any way, MAKE them think that.

If you want to make the world softer for easily offended 12 year olds, then go for it. They might all start thinking "Hey, that Cat Sandwich the Ass Finger is a pretty cool dude - he doesn't stomp on us when he wins." It's just another consequence. Not that you can't benefit from it.

 

If you block a move that has any type of recovery time, there should be an animation specifically for the opponents recovery for that particular move.... AND if the blocking opponent's style (Goh, Kage, Akira in particular) contains elements of reversals and or motion deflection, within the opponent's recovery time, I'd like to see specific counters. Actual canned counters so to speak, that are move specific rather than just, block and choose your standard attack. If an opponent is reeling from a huge missed attack, different options for countering are available. This may be unclear but does anyone get me on this?

 

quoting GodEater,

"sigh. Seriously, now. If I am trying to help you get better, the ability to instruct through active playing ends when the round does. My pouncing you does not undermine anything you've learned or that I've taught. "

Well, there's two schools of thought on this. There's tough love, where you smack the opponent down to make them want to beat your ass even more, driving them to get better (kung fu movie logic). And there's providing instruction and how to carry yourself, with respect for yourself and others, as an example of how to be a good player. Both are valid. I think tough love just builds hate and resentment and undermines self-control, personally.

As far as getting emotionally tied to the game: of course you get emotionally tied, especially if you're competitive. Unless you're an apathetic psychopath, you're probably suffering from all the fight or flight response you would in any competitive arena. Saying no one gets emotional and considers humiliation in a competition to be perfectly acceptable is a breakdown in ethics. An extreme example is the winning chess player not only announces his superiority, but goes ahead and wipes a booger on your king as he holds it up to the crowd. That's what the stomping is like, IMO.

Also, myself, I'm begging for Shun to initiate offense from his drunken walk. There's that Drunken Boxer in DOA whose offense flows naturally from his drunken walk, his clumsy off-putting falls, providing excellently authentic attack angles for a fighter who uses the art. I know DOA is simplistic compared to VF, but that character (Brad Wong, that's his name) seems much more accurate in Drunken Boxing, again IMO.

 

I think some people are missing the point, and Empnova basically knows what's going on here.

1: Is it just a game? Yes -- so WTF is everyone doing here reading/posting frame charts and whatnot?
2: Is it disrespectful in Japan to spam down attacks after a won match? YES
3: Can you do it? YES
4: Is it okay if you do it? Perfectly fine, but don't expect a lot of help from people in the gamecenter you play in.
5: Does anyone I know do it? Yes, but the guys a recluse, and nobody approaches him. Kind of a VF Black Sheep at Gigo.

 

Let me weigh in with a bit of authority here:

In Japan, it is VERY rude to do repeated down attacks on random people you meet. However, in your little group of VF buddies, doing that is quite common, and usually interesting ways of messing with a down opponent gets a good laugh from the crew. Japanese typically are more polite and reserved around strangers (unless it's in a crowd, then prepare to be SHOVED). I could go on and on about the whole honne/tatemae philosophy they emphasize in Japanese Studies classes but I'll stop.

 

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Let me weigh in with a bit of authority here:


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I just want to make this initial point before continuing. I don't believe that it was ever in question about what the Japanese customs were regarding down attacks or pouncing after the match has ended; you can correct me on this if that was indeed the source of debate. My understanding was that it was a question of "right" or "wrong", not "the japanese think this". If I am correct in this understanding Authority is valid only insofar as concerns how I should act within the context of a japanese arcade and only insofar as I believe in the rewards that might come my way. It does not alter my contention or the contention of some others.

see, in my opinion the point that keeps getting missed is the one that Plague brought up quite nicely. I have nothing to do with the way you feel. And emotion is the worst thing to use when creating codes of conduct.

If someone says to me, "hey...don't pounce my character, it hurts my feelings" I won't go out of my way to do it because I'm not wired that way but I don't think it has any intrinsic meaning or worth.

The fact that people want to assign a negative value to something that is a clear "green light" according to the real rules of the game (you know, the ones that are programmed in and define the reality of what can and can't be done within and without rounds) is laughable.



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1: Is it just a game? Yes -- so WTF is everyone doing here reading/posting frame charts and whatnot?
2: Is it disrespectful in Japan to spam down attacks after a won match? YES
3: Can you do it? YES
4: Is it okay if you do it? Perfectly fine, but don't expect a lot of help from people in the gamecenter you play in.
5: Does anyone I know do it? Yes, but the guys a recluse, and nobody approaches him. Kind of a VF Black Sheep at Gigo.


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1. people post and read frame stats so they can learn the game, I guess. the "whatnot" is completely up to them
2. again. An arbitrary designation so I disregard it as such.
3. there you go.
4. what kind of help does that person require? If he's winning it doesn't sound like he needs help. Maybe someone would like to get him a soda?
5. and is he the black sheep because you can't stand the interaction of pixels after a game match has been decided or for some other reason.

From Zero Chan
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In Japan, it is VERY rude to do repeated down attacks on random people you meet

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oh I agree. I tend not to beat on random people I meet. However since no video game characters ever truly meet outside of fan fiction I can't see their feelings being too hurt.

I don't see a breach of ethics, I have no moral duty in place when I play Virtua Fighter. If it consumes my opponent's then I feel bad for them.

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I could go on and on about the whole honne/tatemae philosophy they emphasize in Japanese Studies classes but I'll stop.

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don't stop. Or rather, don't drop words without translation and expect them to carry weight and the sage nod of heads. It may for some convey meaning but for myself it smacks of "I could school you but I choose not to. You are saved by my good graces".

I had a friend who was accused of being ignorant (a) and racist by another friend (b). When pressed to explain why she (b) chose not to. If you have a point to make then make it. It boots nothing to come only halfway.

GE
<font color="green"> I essentially am not in madness, but mad in craft</font>

 

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GaijinPunch said:

1: Is it just a game? Yes -- so WTF is everyone doing here reading/posting frame charts and whatnot?



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To improve and win, what else?

Frame stats discussions are not exclusive to VFDC, you'll likely find discussions that revolve around frame stats on Japanese message boards as well, at least thats what I found.

Studying frame stats is the fastest way to know when you are at an advantage or disadvantage. In VF, frames determine which moves have priority >90% of the time. A player can either study the frame stats, and use them to his advantage, OR he can play without knowing frame stats at all and just learn thru trial and error(which consumes more time/$$$).

The bottom line is knowing frame stats does not make a player invincible, but it does make him a better player(than himself).

 

Ah finnaly, thanks you Zero-Chan, this is what I was going to say eventually.

Chibita said that it is ok to talk smack, tease, down attack, and way you can belitte someone, as long as that person is your friend, and you KNOW that they will not get offended.

Back when Sega was putting up Evolution movies of Chibita matches (that were not part of large Kumite/Brawls), he would face alot of young kids, kids who looked up to him because lots of regular arcade goers in Japan recognize him for a reason, he is not only great at VF, but is a pretty stand up person.

One match that Sega posted was a match of Chibita as Lion, versus a (maybe 11) 12 year old Jacky player, who had like 3500 matches with 40-45% win ratio, even though the Jacky player lost (3-2 though), Chibita never once degraded him with down attacks, nor does he ever to someone he doesn't know. He even shook the kids hand after the match.


Of course this does apply more in Japan (and Korea) where when you play someone in VF, odds are that you will most likely see them again, though you might not notice. When Chibita faced off against Minami is their various showmatches, a couple rounds he would pounce or f,f+kk just to mess with Minami, it was almost like a joke, or acknowleding that he won the round.


The best opponents are not only those that beat you, but the ones that help you when you lose too. And while for some of you mashing pounces after a round maybe not affect you, the other person might be having a bad day, that gets worse, or in lots of cases, gets turned off of VF completely, which only adds to the popularity of other games.

The purpose of arcades is to go and have a good time, the purpose of VF.Net is to get people to go to the arcade, alot. This is why it it common courtesy to be polite at an arcade in Japan, playing at an arcade in Japan is like eating at a restaurant in America, you need to have manners, treat everyone with respect, etc. Mocking a person w/down attacks is just totally unecessary unless the person knows you and can laugh at the situation. Will these posts change some people from trying to humiliate opponents maybe, but if you ever play VF in Japan, don't get crazy with down attacking opponents, it's not exactly the most friendly of activities. If you need some more proof just watch some of the higher level of Japanese VFighting, and see just how many mash those down attacks, very, very few. But don't look through the Daioh vids, all those clowns do is pounce is each other, but they still all know each other, very well in some cases.

 

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Chibita said that it is ok to talk smack, tease, down attack, and way you can belitte someone, as long as that person is your friend, and you KNOW that they will not get offended

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I guess my issue is I don't see the correlation with teasing or spouting noise and using a move in a game. If I said that your uppercut is mocking me would you stop using it? what if I hated being floated or Ten Foot Tossed?

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When Chibita faced off against Minami is their various showmatches, a couple rounds he would pounce or f,f+kk just to mess with Minami, it was almost like a joke, or acknowleding that he won the round.

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so its fine if its chibita. He can "acknowledge" winning a round but for other people its "spamming a down attack".


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Mocking a person w/down attacks is just totally unecessary unless the person knows you and can laugh at the situation. Will these posts change some people from trying to humiliate opponents maybe

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again. This is a value you have attributed to this action. It is not necessarily my value.

Guys, seriously. The only reason I keep posting is because there is a basic flaw in what's being argued. The premise that down attacks = mocking or disrespect is the product of an individual who "feels" a certain way. There is no real meaning in the act itself.

I tried to make myself clear with a reference to earlier arcade experiences and I'll re-visit that experience. There was a time when throws were considered "bad". There used to be a group of people that played VF2 that got upset if you didn't give a mercy round or pounced during the actual game or if you hit them while they were getting up (say, they kept using a rising attack).

This is no different.

GE

 

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GodEater said:
so its fine if its chibita. He can "acknowledge" winning a round but for other people its "spamming a down attack".

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It is fine, AS LONG AS HE KNOWS THE OTHER PERSON AND KNOWS THAT THEY WILL REACT ALLRIGHT. I don't know how many times I can say it, but as long as the person is formal with you, and can handle a little VF teasing, by all means use the down attacks, this is wildly common amongst the frequent inhabitants of the Daioh arcade.

 

sure, but you said it was "Almost like" which does not allow for concrete knowing. it implies a guess. guessing when it suits you is great but it doesn't convince me.

I don't care what happens in Daioh. It isn't the bible of ettiquete, it doesn't validate layering emotion over an act that has no emotion. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

GE

 

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AS LONG AS HE KNOWS THE OTHER PERSON AND KNOWS THAT THEY WILL REACT ALLRIGHT

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So I can post-round taunt a buddy who doesn't care but not one who does? What if I have a buddy who can deal with one post round from the redneck but not two? What about those occasions where I can squeeze three in? With each stomp is the offense greater?

Look. If you have a problem with something someone does to your character IN THE GAME, then what you do is exact your retribution IN THE GAME. I'm waaaaay more grrrrrr when I get Yaahhh'd or SPoD'd or TKoD'd than I am when someone exclams their round win. Maybe that's just me.

 

Most 10 year olds I have worked with (which is a few, being I am in the education field), have the constitution to laugh at it, or they completely miss the supposed "insult." Are you now saying you can't handle it?
DON"T HATE DA PLAYA HATE DA GAME.

 

Ohh..sorry, completely missed that. Yeah, I would be in favor of that, of course, doging would have to be even more exact.

 

Zero said, this said, tha said, some japanese dude said...who the hell cares..Good fucking lord, its a video game, not something dealing with ANYTHING of any significance. Maybe in Japan there are some ethos that are cultural...but here in America, and most other places, dare I say it we have a thicker skin. Seeing the character get pounced on is just "oh, he got stomped on, maybe he is happy he won."
In "The art of war" sun-tzu says that the highest form of warfare is to attack the opponents plans, to disrupt him. If someone gets really irked at that being done to them, that is their fault. As far as I am concerned, its just tactics. If you get them steamed and off balance before the next round starts, your already in a better position.

 

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sanjuro said:
So I can post-round taunt a buddy who doesn't care but not one who does? What if I have a buddy who can deal with one post round from the redneck but not two? What about those occasions where I can squeeze three in? With each stomp is the offense greater?

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Try to be realistic and rational about this thread please, we are talking about down attacks post KO, not mid round game playing and red necks.

To clear up the "So I can post-round taunt a buddy who doesn't care but not one who does? " portion of your post, this is pretty much what I meant. If your friend is going to poorly react, obviously (unless you want to be an intentional jerk) you should not spam down attacks. But if your friend takes jokes/teasing very well, slam his ass to the floor and have a laugh, that's all I am saying.



PS: Shadowdean you heard of the edit button, nice triple post....

 

Imo getting all bent out of shape for a couple of pounces is as, if not more, childish than the actual act itself.

 

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GodEater said:
I think that programmed combos such as PPPK strings should not automatically track dodging opponents. It would create more care in the attacking opponent)


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Yes but then you'll have ppl complaining that dodging is overpwererd. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

People complain at some point at least that everything is overpowered (or underpowered), so know it is the "dodges" turn.

The purpose of the dodge is to wait for it........dodge *gasp* the opponents attacks, don't you think it is kinda of unfair that is the opponent keeps mashing the button they can compensate for being evaded?