I'm thinking Lion might be the best.

Good points. I think Lion is a very-well rounded character. I think maybe Pai is the only one that could compare in terms of low/mid/high balance. Kage isn't too bad either.

Just to note, they've upped everyone's low game in Evolution. Lau's got a decent low-high-mid combo. And Jacky's got some nasty shit too!

 

just to note; you don't need a mid/low guessing game to win; akira, lau, and jacky(which are all highly considered top by many) all take over matches using a mid/throw guessing game instead(w/the occasional low thrown in here and there). lion's biggest strengths are his ability to pressure downed opponents, his small size, and his simple 2-way guessing games.

Akira was beefed coming from VF3 to VF4; he was toned down from B to C though(it was still fairly slight adjustments, unless if you loved the QCB+P move), but he has basically no useless move, almost all his moves were beefed in some way(b,f+P now flops, D,f+P now starts 50% wall combos and is a flowchart starter, f,f,f+P and d/f+P+K now are even better as combo and flowchart starters, list goes on and on); since when did his elbow actually become the game's best elbow?

 

Uh... jacky, Lau, nor Akira have low throws. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

sorry for nitpicking GajinPunch, but when I said, "the occasional low thrown in there" i meant the occasionally low-level attack, not a throw; hope that cleared up what i meant.

 

Hehe -- I'm a literal kinda guy, you know? Obviously you meant something else, but just wasn't sure what. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

okizemi<>Against Rising

<font color="ffffcc">
Do you find b,f+P+G, Akira's Close-In Ram (CIR) useful in applying pressure to downed opponents? This throw is a joy to escape for Lion because of unusually long recovery (-25). Lion can also QR/TR CIR to reduce damage when it connects but if he does is Akira better advantaged doing b,f+P+K or is b,f+P+G still a preferred counter to okiizemi?. When Lion escapes CIR Akira swaps sides and gets pushed forward. He is additionally counterable by Lion's ff+P>f,f+K or df+K+G, I believe. When is CIR a good attack against Lion?</font color>

 

Oh, one thing I meant to mention but forgot, is how god awful Lions evade attack is. Characters like Jacky or Vanessa can do massive damage off their evade attack + throw or another hit/combo, and they can pull it off in a match fairly regularly, yet Lion has no such advantage, but he's still able to be at a level well above most people, and about even with the top guys.

Imagine if Lion had an evade attack like Jacky's....he'd be the most feared opponent, IMO. Sadly, his is probably the worst in the game. Does any one know if it's the same in Evo, or if it at least has better priority, or hits faster or at a different level? They should change it to be at least up to Pai's level (which I think is close to being the 2nd worst).

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
he's still able to be at a level well above most people, and about even with the top guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit being a bit surprised by this entire thread - you realize that in the entire time VF4 has been out no one who has played the game extensively has claimed that Lion is a top tier character. I think Paul (Gaijinpunch)'s comments above pretty much sum up my feelings on the subject.

I don't mean to rain on your parade or anything - it's pretty clear you love the game from your posts. From your reply to Paul, I suspect your thoughts on Lion's strength come from your experience with playing him at an intermediate level. I agree completely that Lion's a great intermediate level character - plenty of fun to play and has lots of options (you gotta love his okizeme game) and is able to dish out damage. Just at higher levels you'll find your opponents can significantly shut down that ability to dish out damage, while it's still pretty easy for them to deal major damage to you.

It sounds like you already appreciate this last fact - just when you go to the arcade and play against good people who remind you of that fact all night long, you start thinking, hmm, maybe it's time to pick up a stronger character...

- Jason

 

Re: Lion Okizeme

<font color="33ffcc"> I searched all the way back and found several mentions of the wonder of Lion's okizeme and found little. Please list your favorite Lion Okizeme Options. </font color> <font color="ffffcc">

U+K jumps over low attacks and knocks back down.

db+K ducks under most mid and high attacks and knocks down.

f,f+K+G has some interesting properties. It avoids all high kicks
when it moves to proper side of opponent.

df+K+G sweeps high kicks back to ground.
uf+P The Ultimate Okizeme attack( copyright BigCat-1996).
Using it on an opponent who is doing a low rising kick will crush them
soundly, likewise for an opponent who rises and remains guarding in a crouch. This move is also a "bounce" move , meaning if you hit your opponent and they weren't hopping/jumping), they will "bounce" once when they hit the ground the
first time. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif This means you may get in a pounce. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

f,f+P If timed correctly, it can be used to counter both a high and low rising kick.
That is, as long as your opponent initiates a rising kick, it will hit them, and
maybe give Lion a pounce. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

Okizeme is most effective when the opponent is face down and on an
angle. /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif
</font color>
<font color="ffff33">

What are your favorite okizeme options for Lion?</font color>

 

Jason Cha: I admit I haven't had a lot of experience playing against top level players since I live in Dallas and nobody plays this game here, but I have played VF since the first one, and I do have a lot of knowledge of the game (not technically, though), and unless I play a top level player that changes my mind, I definitely think Lion is a top tier character.

I've won every tournament I've ever entered, and I've been in tourneys here and in CO., and the top guys of each tourney seem to have problems against Lions unpredictability. And my brother who is pretty good with Jacky even has some trouble, even though we're about even, and we play each other constantly, he still falls for certain moves over and over, simply because Lion can mix up his game so much and still remain unpredictable.

I may be going over board saying Lion's the best, but in the top 3, I have no doubt he falls in this. Look at Chibita, he plays Lion and he wins enough to at least get the recognition that Lion is a character that is at top level. You can't win that much with a character that is intermediate. No one's winning with Lei Fei that much, or with Kage or Vanessa (not to my knowledge). These, IMO, are intermediate characters, and while they still can win, and they are good against certain characters, I still think taking it in as a whole as how well they play against everyone, they just don't fair as well as Lion, Lau, and Jacky.

I'd love to play those guys you talk about that seem to know how to play Lion, but unless I'm in the area, I doubt I'll be able to. Maybe then I could prove my point.

Also, remember that just cause you can't beat top Jacky and Lau players in your area, doesn't mean it's not possible for someone else. Chibita obviously could, so why is it so hard to believe that someone else besides Chibita could do the same?

Just a question for you - Who's in the top 3? I know this game is fairly even and it's hard to make a decision, but if you had to choose, who would it be? I can understand Akira replacing Lion for top 3, but if Chibita didn't exist, and if I saw a ton of Akira players winning tournaments (which I don't), then it'd be a lot easier to believe he belongs up there.

 

What are your favorite Lion vs. Jacky strats? thx

 

Let's see, if they block high my first hit from B, F + P+K, I usually go for a HCB + P+G throw right afterwards. They fall for it a lot since it's super fast.

F, F + P is good when they get up and attack and miss you, then follow with F, F + K, K.

His D, F + P is really good against people who low poke a lot since it cuts right through it most of the time. If they start blocking high after they low poke, do B, D/F + P -> to whatever combo you prefer.

I don't do his B, B + Kick -> P+K unless I know it'll hit. You can get really messed up if they block it.

When they get up, his U + K, K is good against low hits, or if you time it right, against high hits as well. Also good for people who duck after they roll.

For people who block high after roll, throw or do that poke/throw I first printed.

When you get close after you knock them down, hop back with kick and hold kick down until you land, then if they rise with a kick, you can do one of his crumble punches into combo.

D/F + P is a good poke if you don't finish it, but I don't really have a solid strat for what you do after it. IF you hit both, I'm sure you know what to do afterwards.

Don't abuse his low trips unless you know they will fall for it. An elbow + kick from Sarah or Jacky or anyone else will punish you every time if they block it.


I'm sure you know a lot of these things, so the only advice I can really give to playing a good Lion is whether you feel comfortable with him or not really depends on how well you will do. I don't feel comfortable playing Akira or Kage, so I don't bother learning them. Also, poke and throw like crazy and just mix things up.

 

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but i'd like to make a case for Akira being "top tier", whatever that is. Akira has lots of moves with almost instantaneous recovery, allowing him to attack from relative safety, and do a lot of damage in the process. He has his own level of unpredictability to contend with, and can really punish you for making a mistake. Also, he is very good at controlling the pace of the fight with good defense and even better offense. Like i said before, since Lion is reduced to playing traditional defense, he is not always able to be as aggressive as he should...

Anyway, it would be irresponsible to assume that your area is completely representative of the worldwide VF population. In other words, the way you see it in CO and surrounding areas may not be the way it is all over. I play Jeff as my main character and Jacky and Akira as close seconds, and i end up squashing quite a few intermediate Lion players for the simple fact that i know how to get up off the ground, stay away from sabaki-able moves, and use my reach and throwing ability. Characters like Akira and Jeff can do so much damage in such a short time that Lion may never have a chance to get going. The main point being that Lion struggles against opponents that can do a lot of damage in a hurry: Lau, Akira, Jacky.

In my estimation, Lion is only problematic when he can overwhelm your character with his speed (e.g. Jeff, Wolf), or when Chibita or someone comparable is playing him, or so i would assume. /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif

But that's just my opinion; i could be wrong.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Anyway, it would be irresponsible to assume that your area is completely representative of the worldwide VF population. In other words, the way you see it in CO and surrounding areas may not be the way it is all over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, I agree %100. I only stated that to point out that I'm not just some idiot who thinks he's good just because I beat a few of my friends. Believe me, I'm the last to assume people in my area represent the way top guys play, but when someone says the top guys at his area always beats his Lion, then that's assuming the guys are better than me and my Lion.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I play Jeff as my main character and Jacky and Akira as close seconds, and i end up squashing quite a few intermediate Lion players for the simple fact that i know how to get up off the ground, stay away from sabaki-able moves, and use my reach and throwing ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already admitted that Jeffrey and Wolf are really good against Lion. I have trouble beating those guys sometimes. But Aoi and Akira are really good against Lau, and Lau is really good against Jacky, so everyone has someone that can give them a little trouble, even top guys like Jacky and Lau.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Believe me, I'm the last to assume people in my area represent the way top guys play, but when someone says the top guys at his area always beats his Lion, then that's assuming the guys are better than me and my Lion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement, besides not being anywhere near what I said, presumes some level of equality between the people you've played and those I have played.

I suppose I'll be explicit - the real purpose of my post was to let other relatively new people reading this thread know that your opinion about Lion being a top tier character is not shared by any experienced VF player.

Of course you're going to come back and ask who am I to judge who are "experienced VF players" or say what their consensus is. In that regard, what can I say? I can't really do anything to suddenly give you a broad, nuanced and experienced perspective. I can list all the places I've lived and all the people I have played regularly with - but would that really help you appreciate the perspective I bring to the table? Given past experience, I would say that's unlikely.

I genuinely mean no disrespect to you - like I said before, it's clear you enjoy the game, developed yourself at it and that you think before you post. I wish we could meet and play some games. But I don't think it's wrong of me to point out that your statements on Lion, while very valid and good at an intermediate level of play, are simply not applicable at higher levels.

-Jason

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I suppose I'll be explicit - the real purpose of my post was to let other relatively new people reading this thread know that your opinion about Lion being a top tier character is not shared by any experienced VF player.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's the point of this post. If it was well known that Lion was at the top level, it would be pointless to state the obvious. I wanted to give some insight on why I believe Lion is at the very top just from personal experience. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, it's all opinion from what I can tell.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I wish we could meet and play some games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too. It's hard living where all people care about is MvC2 and CvS2 and Tekken 4. I have nothing against those games because I play CvS2 and plan on getting into T4 when it comes to PS2, but for all these guys who love fighting games, you'd think they'd be into a fighting game as good as VF4.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
But I don't think it's wrong of me to point out that your statements on Lion, while very valid and good at an intermediate level of play, are simply not applicable at higher levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not wrong at all, but it still seems you're assuming that there's no way Lion can be at top level, and that I'm wrong with not an ounce of hope that I could be right. I admit you could be right because I'm open minded, but come on, how can you say Lion is only good at intermediate play when Chibita has proven he can be played at top level? If he never existed, then my point of Lion being that good would just be laughed at by everyone, but he seems to be my only way to get across how Lion can be played at a top level (even though it's getting redundant how much I use him as an example).

Honestly, I'm confused about the whole thing. I'm confused at how Chibita is considered the best, and he plays Lion, and yet no one plays Lion at his level, or consider Lion a top character. I know Lion isn't immediately a great character like Lau or Jacky because they're so simple and powerful, but if you play smart and watch your opponent very carefully, Lion can overwhelm pretty much anyone.

Maybe I'm just pulling for him since Jacky and Lau are known for being really good, and I want my character Lion to get some recognition. Whatever it is, my mind is still set on Lion being a top character until someone proves me wrong. And I'd love for someone to prove me wrong since how fun is a game if you never learn new things about your character or it's gameplay.

 

I guess I can understand where Modest is coming from; it's hard to
get into a character if you think that character is somehow weaker
than the "top tier", meaning of course that no matter how good you get
with say, Lion, you will always be beaten by same-level players playing
Lau or Jacky. I'm not sure I believe this. The fighters in the game take on the personality
of the player; I watched some vids of Shun played in that Japanese tounament,
and I was down on Shun because my Shun plays like he's got a bucket of
horseshit on rope around his neck, and when I watched this Japanese Shun I
thought it was the greatest thing I'd ever seen. I mean, of all the characters I've
seen played professionally, this Shun was dealing out damage on a level with
anybody. It reinvigorated my belief in Shun as a character, and even helped my
Shun game some. The point is (and I'm sorry I didn't note who the Shun player was,
as I'm not able to give credit, but it's one of the VFDC MEDIA links), this player
turned Shun into a force. The fact that Chibita elevates Lion to the level he does merely says there
is no real top-tier, but also that Chibita's Lion is an aberration. Same-level players
playing with Lion and Jacky will discover Jacky will win most of the time. Same with
Shun and Lau, or Lei and Akira. Jacky, Lau and powerhouses like them don't
require MUCH thinking, because you can berserk and win with them. Lei and Shun
and Lion require excellent playing skill along with planning, and it all has to happen in
less than a second. Still, the advantage is with Jackys and most Laus, because as in the real world,
ANYBODY can be a brutal killer (a Lau or Jacky) but fewer can be thinkers. Look
at it that way.

 

Re: okizemi<>Against Rising

not to distract from the conversation, but i just wanna answer nycat's question about the CIR throw.

i don't THINK you should use it to pressure downed opponents; with Akira chances are you go for a semi-circular mid strike when the opponent TRs. that or SDE or throw, but chances are that throw isn't going to be the CIR; usually his d/f+P+G or the ST throw. it's not bad to mix the catch throw or d/b,f+P+G throw in there too though. and yeah, i'd prefer the b,f+P+K for okizeme.

but i think when the CIR is good against Lion is like it's good against any other character; near a wall. ok, yeah, you are running the risk of getting escaped and hit hard, but EVERY character has their high damage counter to this throw once it's escaped, not just Lion. (thinks of Jeff and Wolf near a wall, ouch) CIR throw's kinda useless outside of near a wall, since outside you'd rather use the d/b,f+P+G throw(unless if you're opponent's really bad at escaping the CIR throw but can TR reliably, in which the CIR's probably better due to its faster recovery when the throw connects).

that's all i wanted to say, feel free to correct me or just carry on w/your guys' conversations.

 

I have a real problem counter 8KK. Is it my imagination or this move is fairly abusable? Uncounterable (is it?) circular mid.

The followup hits often on a medium-height float, and on a high float you can tack on 46P+KPP instead. Near the wall 8KK, 8P is gruesome damage for a safe move.

If you 2P after 8K to stop Lion's flow (eg. stop the second hit of 8KK) you risk Lion doing 8K twice in a row to beat 2P or 2K meant to MC the second high hit.

Almost anything attack you use to stop 8K twice in a row will lose you the initiative when blocked (eg elbow).

Anyone has any suggestion on how to counter this move? Standing P?

I play Jeff btw.