Improving the Newcomers (Goh + Brad in next installment)

Yes, they're underused, underplayed, and some say underpowered, but what is it that Goh + Brad lack in evo? As of now, Brad's striking game seems to highlight an ineffective mid/high guessing game, while having a throw game that rivals lei-fei's, while Goh, although a solid character, has a movelist that makes Jeffery laugh. What, if anything, do you think they need to become more well-placed characters?

Don't get me I'm glad Sega decided to make Brad + Goh how they are instead of risking overpowering them, but I think most of us can agree they both feel incomplete.

Discuss.

 

Goh pisses all over Jeffry. You only need double throw escape to tame fat jeff and his counterability (is that a word?) is pants.

To improve Goh I'd make tsukami better since nobody really fears it at the moment. I'd ditch + since it looks out of place on him and give him a different animation for a half circular move. Lastly I'd give him some different shit to put on the end of floats. He's supposed to be hard to use but , on the end of a combo is almost the same damage as ,+. Scrubs shouldn't be allowed to play as Goh. I wouldn't change anything major since I think Goh's pretty effective as it is.

As for Brad, they should concentrate on making him less rubbish. He's crap in a lot of places so they can't really mess up when it comes to making him better.

 

i agree with Elite. more low throws for Goh? or is that being too generous?

 

Yeah 1 more low throw would be pretty cool, around the same damage as his ++. Other characters get 3 so why not?

Something I forgot, + should be a true catch throw. Giving it an escape is just gay.

 

ya, i agree. anyone who gets hit with a + deserves it lol.

 

Goh need diagonals in his catch throw to make it hard for ppl to escape. This also adds new throws to the system. It's too easy to escape 4 directions. I think he also needs another ground or low throw, maybe something like .

As for Brad, he needs a low knee throw like Jeffrey. His sways need more speed and he should have like a double dodge kinda thing. he would do his normal swish swoosh stuff but then u can like input up or down again for a proper dodge but still in the low stance. Brad also needs to use his hands a bit more. Maybe a cheeky sweep with his hand like a hook punch which leads to a combo oppurtunity.

 

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Elite said:

Yeah 1 more low throw would be pretty cool, around the same damage as his ++. Other characters get 3 so why not?


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Aoi didn´t /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif...
Two directions are escaped too easily.

 

I really hope they make Brad a better character, I really enjoy playing him, but people learn a few of his tricks and you are out of technique! I play brad alot and want him to be better, I used to play Goh but after I stuck with the Bryants I felt he was too slow. I think Goh is practically fine the way he is, he has an arrage of good moves that stay usable.

 

When they "learn his tricks" (aka Stand and Block) just throw more until they stop just blocking. Sway to throws, punch and kick to throws (remember to gaurdcancel alot)... make them start to play your game again. I know that many people will cry over Brads throws being weak (when in fact they are not really so) but start to think about Brads throws as setups for moves instead of healthbar stealers - it helps.

 

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KiwE said:

When they "learn his tricks" (aka Stand and Block) just throw more until they stop just blocking. Sway to throws, punch and kick to throws (remember to gaurdcancel alot)... make them start to play your game again. I know that many people will cry over Brads throws being weak (when in fact they are not really so) but start to think about Brads throws as setups for moves instead of healthbar stealers - it helps.

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Exactly /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Brad is difficult to use, and is overpowered in some cases, but personally, I've grown pretty capable with him.

I can't really think of a lot of specific moves to add to bridge the gap. I do wish they made his catch throw more like Vanessa's mount; Vanessa's got four options (,,+,+), where Brad really only has two (moving them around is fun to do, but I don't count that as an option for damage). I'd like Brad to have four options as well; , (let him stay in the catch after the first two 's instead of knocking them down on the first one), +, and +.

I know it's just a jock of Vanessa's mount, but it's effective and fair. I'd like it this way, unless Sega has something special in mind for the catch throw.

 

No.... yeah his catch is weak sure (but can't be compared to vans and how often do you really get a real opponent into catch?) but what he really needs is a special mid from sways and so on to hurt those who try to + him if anything.
I refuse to whine at Brad though so I'll stop about here.

 

he could join goh and steal a low punch-eating shoulder ram from a slip /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

all kidding aside though, i agree with what Myke says, and although I never looked deep enough into Brad to see this take effect, it does seem like a big disadvantage for him.

I understand Muay thai uses the shins a lot in defensive ways, so it does seem like a low punch sabaki would make sense. Maybe lead to stomach crumple or something, like Kage's jumonji +.

About his catch throw too, i think a big problem with it is it doesn't really have a great lead-in. A sabaki to neck clinch like Goh's would be cool, but kinda against his style the way i see it.

Anyone here play brad seriously? I'd love to hear ideas from people who have probed brad a lot deeper than I have

 

Yeah, you're right. Btw, I really like the idea of the sabaki. I have thought alot about solutions to the problem but a sabaki totally slipped somehow, would fit his style nice aswell. Fuck it, here's some whine (prepare to have a "why do you play the character then?" / "But it's really good cause of..." comment handy).

I'd like more gaurd cancel moves to set up for stuff similar to his . His throws aren't that strong to begin with but you need to be able to threathen with them if you intend to win. If Sega wanted him to be played up close in particular. Slip / Sway throw's are nice but they aren't really true in that sense.
I could see, for example, a being nice in addition to the etc. Would have to be balanced out of cource. His teep kick is all messed up to what it should be (if it really was a teepkick it should be a sabaki of some sort as they're used irl defensivly) and they made it in a combo which is fine but then it should be more useable.

+'s; to slow - to much risk for what they do.

+ is extremly nice if not Brads best move but it can't be used in a Nitaku situation which leads me to the next point; I hate dealing with people who CD / Step alot when playing Brad. I used to <font color="red">love </font> using +, but now I hate it and think it should be removed / heavily edited. Why? Cause it messes up the entire flow / gameplay feeling that you have of playing Brad. For example a +>>+ feeling compared to a +>>+, feeling; hard to explain but I just hate that pause that kills of all momentum you had going - the move just doesn't fit imo.

+: being TC is just to harsh / annoying as it's a usefull tool other than that.

: Should be worthwhile adding the knee from time to time.

; Just plain silly.

As said earlier I prefer to see Brads throws as setups for moves but understand those who complain about them. I would love to have some option after + though or atleast a hard guessing game.

 

Myke: I never even thought of that, a sabaki would be a very welcome addition.

There is another thing they could've done; it's simpler, and it upsets me that they prevented it from being possible. Most moves that you can begin slipping directly after, don't allow you to sway back. For example, with ,, you can slip in all directions except for back. It upsets me because swaying back avoids the low punch even at point blank. I don't see why Sega doesn't let you sway after those specific attacks. That alone would be okay, but he would still need an attack that would counter the low punch; from swaying back would miss entirely, and is too slow. If they added a quick attack, that would do. Let the recovery be slow enough for a counter in case you guess wrong, and let Brad be at a disadvantage if it's guarded (or other adjustments to the properties), and that would keep it from being abusable. That adjustment would seriously make me happy, since swaying back is one of my favorite moves he has.

KiwE: I just mentioned the catch because I'm a muay thai fanboy, and because it seems almost useless. Like you said, I rarely pull it off in competition, so imo if they don't improve it, it's just a move taking up space; either improve it or get rid of it. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

And I don't see what you mean with the +, messing up on the flow, or momentum. Do you care to elaborate (in this thread, or by pm, doesn't matter to me)? I'm pretty curious as to what you mean.

 

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afroconnexion said:
And I don't see what you mean with the +, messing up on the flow, or momentum. Do you care to elaborate (in this thread, or by pm, doesn't matter to me)? I'm pretty curious as to what you mean.

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I am not KiwE (obviously /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) but I can guess that since +, pushes the opponent away instead of bringing you closer like + does, it disrupts your momentum to keep pressuring the opponent.

 

I agree brad should get an attack which either has priority over LP or sabaki's it. Personally I'd like to see a knee that isn't useful except as a LP-defeater (slow execution, big disadvantage if blocked) but crushes would-be LPers in the face for reasonably big damage. I don't think the attack should be available from slipping, though. If they see the slip coming and have time to LP it, they should be able to imo.

I'd also think about adding his clinch as another throw direction. Dunno if that would overpower him or not, but I think he should be able to play a strike-or-throw guessing game more effectively. IMO the other option would be to give him a low kick with very short range, but very good frame stats (quick execution, small-to-medium disadvantage if blocked, small advantage on normal hit, big advantage on MC) to reward him for getting in close by giving him a strong short-range mid/low/high game. Edit- in case I wasn't clear- I think one or the other of these changes should be made, but NOT both.

Lastly, I think maybe he should be able to hold his position in slipping longer if the buttons are held down. From what I can figure out, a lot of attacks can be slipped only with very tight timing (he has to be near the limit of his motion when the attack comes). I don't know if the inputs would work right, because you wouldn't want to involuntarily hold the slip too long in the wrong situation. But if the inputs could be worked out, I think this change would make slipping more effective without unbalancing things.

I've only been playing for a couple of months, so maybe I'll see things differently once I get better... oh, and since this is my first post I'd like to thank everyone who contributes to these boards. I've learned a lot here.

 

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And I don't see what you mean with the +, messing up on the flow, or momentum. Do you care to elaborate (in this thread, or by pm, doesn't matter to me)? I'm pretty curious as to what you mean.

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Well simply put; there's to long of a paus after it as it is a knockdown move making it so that you can't really threathen those who you knocked down with it effeciently / do setup games unless they happened to have a wall behind them. Brads other knockdowns; , , , + and +, lets you keep this momentum of threathening someone that's rising in another way. After the + you get the feeling of that you have to work your way inside of striking range again which is, as it stands, one of Brads major problems. That's what I ment by it killing of his momentum / doesn't fit.

Yeah, there are alot of aspects that could / should be improved with Brad but he's resonably strong as it is anyways (almost thru overcompensating with his damage in combo potenial) - I just wish he had something similar to Jerkys + or +, (mid, reasonably fast and with a bit of range combostarter that isn't TC) and a circular attack of the likes of Jerkys + at times as it's not fun to play against someone who steps much against him due to you not being able to threathen with the +.

Sure the catch throw isn't the best in the world (how about his backturning kick then if we're gonna go there?), wont argue with you. But it's kinda unfair to compare it to Vans cause Brad goes into his Catch from hits only and you can always get -some- damage from it atleast (and can be seen as a bonus from the original move)... All his throws could infact benifit from a +10dmg boost or something (exept perhaps the +):

Mindgames between strikes and throws are what VF is all about; that's why it's harder to break throws then in any other game. In Brads case it's even worse to have weak throws as you really need to be able to threathen with them from slips and so on (which aren't true followups for starters); I mean... if the opponent has the option between just standing and blocking and risking a 40dmg throw or eating a CH slipright 72+ combo with you getting the momentum on a rising opponent of course he / she will prefer to block as it isn't a balanced guessing game. If they wanted to keep him by design as someone with rather weakthrows and a powerful striker that could be worked around with the likes of a gaurdbreaker like Akiras ++, a Hitthrow on block move like Goh's + or something even more basic like a low attack from his slips - but he totally lacks these tools so you are stuck at the guessinggame at hand.

Furthermore; I've always hated the animations in the Catch throw and even the fact that he does the same elbow that he does in normal + and that, in it's turn, is recycled from Vanessa from VerC. Brad has problems in both design and completion but I fully trust Sega to "fix" him / complete him for the next installment.

 

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Myke said:

I see what you're saying, but I think Brad has two particularly excellent tools he can followup with after the +:

1. Middle Spin Kick (ducking +)
2. Hunting Middle Kick (slip right )

I don't think you can really compare the + with the above moves, simply because the moves you listed are combo starters, so naturally they're designed so you can followup (and hence combo).


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Both both of these are defended against in exactly the same manner. My probs with the + are more, as I said in my first post, the feeling I get of doing it compared to other moves - the dislocation of the fight or something. Maybe its just me? I hate doing slipleft >>+, although it's good damage for example. I like playing Brad tight, like "Oh where did my lifebar go?" tight and I feel that's how he should be played but of cource that's all objective. Say you do ducking + and you don't get them in the TR rising then that's the end of that and back to square one again - working your way in.

I think I can compare it to Brads other moves though as it's the feeling of the move and yeah, I'd prefer it to be heavily edited (maybe a combostarter that would be more highrisc and that just starts with the + part) to retain this feeling of rushing someone down that you get when playing Brad. I just don't think the move fits with him, regardless of what it does or what type of move it is. Brads 'feeling as a character is "rush that shit down or have that shit rushed down upon you" and it has to be otherwise you won't get the hits from slips and so on connecting or CH's with him in general as his throw threat is weak.

And almost all of Brads knockdown moves are in fact combostarters /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif but if I were to take a move like (which also in fact is one but is probably the most similar) I don't feel that pause in flow I'm desribing after this move either. I'm probably just insane *holds up a note with a drawing of a tree covered in blood with the words "This patient is Zane"*.

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Myke said:
As for the Beat&Back Knuckle, this is middle kick speed and is definitely throw counterable (in fact it's -12, so med P counterable too). Not only that, the second hit is high so it makes it even riskier. Brad's equivalent would be the last shot series (+), same speed, less range but slightly better recovery, and combo potential almost the same, but this time maybe 10pts more in Brad's favour.

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I can not understand how you can compare the longshot to the beatknuckle at all, it can't hold a candle compared to it. +, is P counterable, + isn't. There are even trainings in tactic advice for the sole purpose to see if the first part is a hit and react accordingly (similar to Brads exercise). Hell, the move is even semicircular! You don't throw out a longshot from nowhere with Brad, it's a move you setup to do and if you miss, well, you're fucked.

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The other combo starter that's probably neglected is his , also uncounterable(!), and with slip/ducking options as well.


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The problem with this move is you want to go into the duck as soon as it for the nice followups and don't really have time to see if it's blocked. If it is blocked and you do go into a slip / duck then you'll be 'd as a CH which we can agree about hurting Brad alot.

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Jacky's middle spin kick is nice, but highly risky, and I hate the freeze time after MC! I don't necessarily think Brad needs a fast circular, but I wouldn't complain if he had one. He's got high and low circular kicks with pretty good results on MC, but not so great otherwise.

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Can you honestly say you'd prefer Brads circulars over Jackys +? Not only are Brads circulars heavily counterable and you get even on a high hit and disadvantage (!) on a low hit (kn+ on a block) but they are also retardedly slow in startup which basicly kill of the meaning of having a circular in the first place - killing of those who evade / do ETE's. Brads +'s do suck and there is no way around this really imo.

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Don't mean to pick your post apart

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Since when did you stop doing that? /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Nah, I've learned most things I know about Brad from the Dojo you wrote and you know from in private I always want your opinion cause your Brad is great; there aren't many Brad players to begin with (Sssh... don't mention the plan of world domination).