Improving the Newcomers (Goh + Brad in next installment)

Re: Yup.

"i never understood why Akira has guardbreakers. he has the best line of throws"

Huh?

 

Re: Yup.

ok... decent. there. how bout better than brads? lol. sorry, i tend to overexaggerate lol.

 

Re: Hey there buddy, back of for a moment!

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KiwE said:

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its nice to have it there but its not needed. now if brad had one of those... he'd get insane damage and mind games (<--something he's a little short of)

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He's good at chess.

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lol.

 

Re: Hmmm.

Maybe one way to boil it down to is this: what would you rather have?

1. Brad with + and +, or
2. Brad without the above circulars

If you choose 1, then you have to admit the circulars do add value to Brad.

(This is not a rhetorical question! For example, I would prefer if Wolf didn't have + at all, or Aoi her .)

 

Have to say something.

There's no point in talking to air (and nobody else is filling in on this) but if you make your last post with lots of questions I have to say something... I've learned alot from this thread (and probably others will to) so I'm abit saddened by you leaving cause I don't feel that there are many highlevel Brad players on VFDC to have a debate with and normally even less threads about him beyond the "He sucks" point. I know I might have a aggressive tone when discussing (I always do and it's a char flaw I have but really I'm not) but I hope that's not why you'll stop posting.

I brought up the Nitaku situation as you / others didn't seem to care about how fast a move was and how that was of importance to a circular's useage as they would still win over the evade. So I talked about secondary properties (that most people don't see when they just look at on gaurd / on even / on block) of how severly the slow startup time (risk of MC'ed, not useable in Nitaku) haltered Brads circulars.

You still don't seem to care about this (as much as I do) and the situations on hit even as it's gauranteed damage (let's lower it to one point?) as you say, basicly out of the principle that it's a circular (by this logic all moves in vf should be considered "good" moves as all moves are in a class system but the reality is not so) and that's were we don't agree and probably never will agree...

How is my mind setup on Brads moves and why would that make it pointless for you to go on (it's not like anybody will be convinced that his circulars are exellent really)? I really doubt that you think that they are balanced as it is - you would want them improved aswell (although you ended with saying you're happy if they stay as they are) as I and every Brad user out there and it would be fair asking for it:

I would be fair asking for his to have some use and it would even be, perhaps a more borderline case, for his to be faster as well (or have some special property), for the next installment in some way... this isn't a biased rant about how I or anyone else with move critizism would like a instant killer move (nobodys asking for a + or a ) so yeah, my mind is made up - I want the moves improved (and can't help to think most would).

There isn't any secret knowledge to the application of these moves... no mystism to be found. You use them much less when you / your opponent understands them imo (+ seems to be great at first) then before that point in time but you're right, I don't use them in the situations that you mentioned. I feel that it's wrong for you to say that they have special great useage or that you're happy with them exept for the point of argument as there are many new players to the board (many of who might not be even to follow everything talked about but look up to you) who would be mislead / think that they're playing him wrongly if they don't find much use for the the move (instead of doing the "right thing" imo and compensating them with other, better tools); seriously Myke - as a IN stance counter?

Why would I do this - cause I can't punch? I'd do a and the likes all day over this. Lei Fei can use alot of moves, as you know, who give him advantage on block and that combined with the +'s slowness would just probably get you MC'ed - it would be like buying a lottery ticket with low payoff. Would I perhaps do his circulars (even if I'd get much less damage from it)if they were faster? Yeah, I probably would. But none of that matters as they're still "solid" against evaders right?. But wait, why do we have a debate (and I'd never use it against someone in IN) over how they can be applied in situations like this then?

Aoi's YY stance would probably be a better way to apply them in (but I think I've gotten her more out of it with dodge>+ then his normal circulars) but it's not like she's all invunrable when she's in it - if we ignore for a sec that a throw would be a faster option (and better) if I predicted this she's also very vunerable to low attacks like or yeah even Kages + or Akiras +. It's kinda the basis of the YY stance - low attack or throw - not slow (fast according to you in your post) circulars.

I think our debate over Jackys + versus Brads is pretty much done but I feel + is actually a better move when playing "normally" without the evade pov for Brad and that's -18 frames + right? But if we're still focused on his high +, and it has some functions only the best of the bestest know of - I'm still waiting for that MC knockdown clip.

I believe that if a move has some weak points it should have other strong points to make up for it; that was one of the things that pulled me into the game of VF - not alot of BS / Abuseable moves. If a move was high risk it was generally high payoff or had secondary redeeming factors (sabaki for example), if it was low pay off it was low risk. The game is not perfect in this balance (but better all other fightinggames) and that's why for example some attacking moves gets used more then others. It's natural for some moves to dominate when playing a character (and in VF one move can be used in many ways) as the moves properties are often mixed in complex ways and at the end of the day, everything can still be countered if you read your opponent but that does not change my starting statement, which I also stand by but you opposed:

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+'s; to slow - to much risk for what they do.

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And finally to Ice-9: That's just crazy talk.

Over, Out and Happy Hollidays, I'm gonna build a Jeffry Snowman.

 

Re: Hmmm.

And yeah, about: [ QUOTE ]
Umm, the + will MC anyone attempting evading throw escapes. If you ever yomi someone ETEing, it's a nice no-brainer to go with. I don't quite follow your line of thinking with Jacky's middle spin kick not being able to MC unless heavily delayed?

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You MC someone in a moves execution stage (as you mC someone during it's recovery). That is, in order to MC someone who does a TE you'de have to hit him while the animation of the throw is coming out - not while someone is buffering it while evading. That would be the reason why it would be hard to even find a MC knockdown against someone evading being caught by Brads (much slower) circular + (and why I asked for the clip it in the first place) and probably while ETEG's even exist. So... while it's easier to get MC'ed in a situation as you stand and buffer TE after Lions +/ followups - against a fast circular like Jackys during your evade (unless delayed heavily which I said) I wouldn't be counting on it. Or am I wrong?

 

Goh.

I think Goh is pretty good but I would like some of his existing moves to be improved. possibly sped up, giving a greater advantage or a smaller disadvantage. Some prime candidates would be /+, +, and +.

If they were to give him new moves I would recommend more hit throws, catch throws and quick sneaky stagger moves along the lines of . He is at his best when he is up close and on the attack (especially against the rising opponent) and this style should be continued.

 

Re: Goh.

With Goh's tsukami, how about giving him 3 movements, with fewer directions each time, for example on the first movement give him 8 directions and let it do about the same damage as the first moment does now. On the second moment give him 4 directions, again giving him about the same damage as the second movement does now. On the third movement give him only 2 directions making it very risky (50/50 escape probability) but make it do a huge amount of damage. Also make his little push for no directions actually set something up.

Robin.

 

Re: Goh.

Gohs a fairly completed character though, and the style is true to real judo. I only wish he had a follow up to his elbow, its much hard to use in conjunction to other poking moves. There really isn't much wrong with Goh, even with a lack of spinning moves, his + is difficult to use, but we see many top tier players use it even if it has a risk. Pure skill, pure skill.

Edit: Forgot to mention Goh's + is half spin & rocks.

 

Re: Goh.

a kinda quirky addition to Goh that i think would be cool, would be to allow him to have throw counters instead of escapes. since he uses judo, not only should be able to throw well, but counter throws well. maybe like a throw reversal stance? like YY for aoi, except he can be hit out of it, but if you try to throw him he'll counter the throw and throw you in return. or maybe even just giving him a few pts of damage on a throw escape. something along those lines.

i'd like tsukame to have more usages. more since its his signature move than anything else.

all in all though he's fairly solid. perhaps tweaking a few more moves, and making b,fP+K be more useful.

 

Re: Goh.

bloody brilliant idea! /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif also i think he should have more continuous throws, kinda like Aoi. and another thing that would be nice would be the addition of a couple of chokes in the style of Van's sleeper hold. after all chokes are a part of Judo. maybe the motion, for one of the chokes could be ++.