Improving the VF scene in North America

I started to post a comment on this subject matter in the "VF Wiki" thread. I realized that every few weeks this subject reappears in different threads so I decided to give it its own thread. It obviously is going to get it bandwidth anyway.

In the thread "VFWiki" Llanfair said: [ QUOTE ]
/signed.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. To those who love this game, go now and introduce yourself to your local arcade operator. Get to know them a bit better. This will help develop a relationship between them and whatever small group of VFers exist in their area. It will not only help in the potential acquistion of VF5, but it will also help them manage their clients (you) better.

If you get VF5 - first and foremost - play it. I mean, play it a lot. Show your dedication to the arcade. Say hi everytime you go in. Point out the group to the management. Be nice to each other. Share resources. Point people to this site for discussion. Grow your scene in a constructive way.

Discussing strategies for NAVF growth around VF4FT is moot now. Let's all be patient for VF5 and get off to a good start. Once a player base is established again, then we can reorganize our resources (VFDc, etc) to meet the needs of the NAVF community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Myke Said: [ QUOTE ]
Newbies aren't reading the material that's already available, so what are the chances they'll want to go browse or search a wiki? Admittedly, looking up definitions, histories, etc, does have some value, but if the ultimate goal is to grow the scene, then we have to work at the grass roots:

1. introduce new people to the game
2. help these new people become strong players

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The real problem is in the local scenes on a grass roots level. I another thread Srider mentioned a card system. I don't even know what a card system is. I assume that it is something similar to the original PS2 VF4 where each player could load a profile in either memory card slot. However the point is that I have not scene and arcade since I left college. And even the arcade at my college died soon after I graduated.

People here keep talking about organizing national events. I need to know how to meet with and play with other players in my town. How can I get them together? Can someone answer that? The internet has distorted our world view somewhat because now it is easier to communicate with people in other countries than it is to communicate with people across the street. I don't need a national event. I would be satisfied to know what people in my town play VF on their consoles.

Having said that I do believe that the setup of the traditional arcades was wrong. All the arcades I've seen were of the quarter per play type. That would never work for VF. It would require $50 before you knew how to walk.

Is there some law against having a series of consoles attached to cabinents and LCD screens and charging people a flat fee for a monthly membership?

 

I deleted the double post just so you know.

Anyways, this topic has been beaten to death already, and it's really not something any of us can control. It's just an unfortunate situation that VF is simply not popular in the US. As you pointed out, something that many of us have touched on before as well, the local scene is vital for VF to gain popularity. The only way to do that is for someone locally to do something about it, and that is you. The success of that, however, is never guaranteed. So yeah, we can sit here and talk all day about the laments of VF players, but nothing is really going to change.

About your last idea, of hooking up consoles and charging people playing for a fee. I am also curious as to if there is a law governing that type of service, since the games aren't licensed for use in public. So I wonder how does a place like GTN in NYC circumvent this restriction. Maybe one of the NY folks can shed some light to this issue. The problem though, is that even if such a place popped up in your neighborhood, will that change anything? Just like online VF, even if such an institution existed for VF, will that suddenly make people like VF? My only reference to answer that question is my own arcade. Once we had a VF4 machine, and it made the least amount of money. It would sometimes be days before tokens were found in the cabinet, and only a few at that.

Many of us are just hoping that maybe the company that depends on the well beings of the arcades and their games would actually do something about this issue. Maybe after some time and efforts, you will feel the same.

 

I didn't know I had made a double post. I thought I had looked at it. Anyway thanks for the edit.

I ask that because I realized that VF is doomed to fail in any arcade whereby people must pay for each play. When I think about fighting games and arcades I think a few simple things are so evident that no one will argue them.

1. VF is the most masher-hostile game on the market.
2. Most people that go to any arcade are mashers.
3. Fighting games as a genre is declining in the US.
4. Arcades in the US have become extremely rare.
5. It takes hours of practice before you can begin to play competently. It takes many more hours before you can become good.
6. VF is the most balanced and technically perfect (although nothing is so perfect that it can not be improved) fighter on the market. At least that is what the critics say.

I also base my thoughts on this hypothesis...

<u>Once a person becomes sufficiently competent in VF they will prefer it to other fighters provided they have sufficient competition.</u>

No one is going to pay another $0.50 to attempt to play a game that they still haven't learned after spending $10.00 on it. I asked that question because in order for VF to increase its play time, the learning curve has to be made far cheaper than it currently is. The last time I was in an arcade one game cost fifty cents, it may be more than that now. At that price, one hundred matches costs $50. After one hundred VF matches you don't know squat.

I was thinking of a model whereby people paid a flat fee per week or per month and got to play all the games in the arcade as much as they could. Under that model VF would be as cheap as any other game. It would be free for people to play while waiting on something else. Through the simple wasting of time there would be more people familiar with the basics of VF over the long run. That means more players.

In keeping with my hypothesis, there is a critical mass at which a person knows enough about VF and will come to prefer it over other fighters because of the many additional options it offers while still maintaining balance better than any other game. Once a few people reach this 'critical mass' other people who already know the basics, will see them playing and become more interested in the game.

This model would also offer value to the casual and hardcore gamer by giving him access to many games for the price of a few. It would also give people a place to compete on games that presently only allow competition against the computer.

 

Your hypothesis is wrong.

Also, there is the home version of VF, which after you pay $20, you can play it an infinite amount of times. Some arcades also do special price days, where you can play for hours on free play for a flat fee. None of which have made VF any more popular. Really, it's just up to you to convince people/store owner around you to create a community and/or environment friendly for VF.

 

About playing VF on the console, we do it all time w/ EVO and we constantly pay $20 for 3 hours. As far as I know there isn't a law against that especially since everything on console is generally not the latest version of the game anyways. Since people always play the current version of the game, guys like Sega and Namco stand to lose little or gain enough money from it.

Oh by the way Darrius_Cole where are you from?

 

I am from a small city in Arkansas that is six (6) miles to the west of Memphis TN.

Srider, why is my hypothesis wrong?

You do realize that the opposite of my hypothesis is, "The is no amount of knowledge of VF that will make the ordinary gamer prefer it to other fighting games given sufficient competition." In other words the opposite of my hypothesis is that VF is simply not as good of a game as other fighters are. If nobody likes it even after they get over the learning curve, then the game is inferior.

I admit that I haven't frequented arcades for quite some time. Still I don't buy that my hypothesis is wrong. You have to prove that to me. I believe that VF is a better game than the average 3-D fighter. Tell me why it isn't.

 

Darrius_Cole, you're young and if you're still playing vf after 3 years you're eventually join the dark-side.

 

There are tons of Japanese VF players that I've met that prefers other games than VF, even though they are, to put it humbly, competent at VF.....

 

I'm not young by video-gamers standards. In fact it would be safer to say I'm old. I have been playing VF for about 3 years now, though.

At first I thought that there are only 3 possibilities.

1. The game is good but there is a barrier keeping the ordinary American fight-gamer from realizing how good it is.
2. The game isn't good and we are delusional for thinking it is good.
3. The game is good and we are somehow smarter than the average American fight-gamer for being the few who realize it.

After having read this post I realize that maybe there is another possibility. Maybe Sega is just so inept at marketing that they can lose even though they possess a superior product.

If VF is not any better than any other game then it is getting what it deserves from the marketplace. It is a waste of time talking to anyone else about it or trying to increase its market share. It simply doesn't deserve it.

 

Sometimes people just have bad taste. Ofcourse it's very rare that they'll admit it because they want to keep a positive self-image.

 

Yo, I don't get. Maybe it's cause I wasn't playing this game "competitively" for a long time but why is VF unpopular? Is it cause arcade cabs are super rare? Console version had some problem? The imposing "depth and difficulty" of the game?

Honestly I haven't been a hardcore player for a long time but VF4(I played 2 when I was younger but didn't truely know the game) was hella fun when I played it. I mean I find it hard to see why high level players from other communities don't want to play this game, they praise it like every 5 words when they talk about 3D fighters in general. (And procede to bash my game every other 5 words..... oh well that's a different topic.)

I mean not every character takes MAD ASS execution skills to at least play decently. And the system is super flexible/balanced and provides for some amazing come backs and excitement. I mean... do people just call VF "deep but I wouldn't play it" cause they pick up Akira and can't do his dragon lance combos or something. I mean I post on SRK and other forums and they have nothing but praise for this game. I mean that's alot of guys praising... you mean none them want to actually play the game or at least support it? /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Call me a scrub (cause I am) but I don't get it. T5 has an easy ass infinite on a upsurdly good character, SC3 is glitch ridden, and well I won't say anything about DoA, but VF is definately more fun to play competitively than all those fighters.... and everyone knows that. So why is it that people praise yet it's still unpopular? /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

yeah man, that;s pretty much the big mistery.

""deep but I wouldn't play it" <--that pretty much says it all

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

[ QUOTE ]
EXM said:
So why is it that people praise yet it's still unpopular? /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

To praise the game in a few words takes zero effort.

To actually learn, play and become competitive among your peers requires considerably more effort, discipline and training.

That's why.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hence the need to allow people to learn the basics of the game at zero marginal cost. Currently the decision confronting the player is A) Spend the time and money on the first of 100+ sessions learning a new game, which would be a waste if I don't follow through or B) Spend the time and money playing something I already know, which would be instant gratification.

 

The game being complex and hard to learn is a two sided sword. Surely, it drives casual players away as virtually the game can't be played without understanding of the VF system. On the other hand, VF's more fun as one gets better, and this concept is being shared by the most of players who play or know VF. To me, VF's complex system and depth is what draws me into the game. VF's challenging but at the same time it gives you real satisfying feeling as you get better.


My feeling towards VF not being popular because of it's complexity is sorta whatever. It's true that the game is hard to learn, so this game is for someone who's willing to put the efforts required. If general gamers in the U.S. are the type of players who want instant results and improvement, VF wouldn't be the game for them. From my experience, this happens be the case in the U.S., and the truth of matter is you can hardly ever change the taste or characteristics of general public.


What really ticks me off is people talking about VF not being flash enough to play. VF's popularity in Korea is not even close to that of Tekken, but the reason why VF's unpopular there is it's complexity. People talk about the steep learning curve compared to that of Tekken. I've never heard of people having an excuse of not playing VF as VF being flash enough. Fighting games are not an anime. You can go watch anime if you want fireballs going across the screen and explode. Granted, different people have different taste and diffrent reasons for doing something, but I hear the lack of flashness excuse way too often to think of it as a statement from some anime fans. So many people can't see beyond what is displayed and don't even try it which makes me frustraed in trying to promote the game I love.

 

[ QUOTE ]
maddy said:

The game being complex and hard to learn is a two sided sword. Surely, it drives casual players away as virtually the game can't be played without understanding of the VF system. On the other hand, VF's more fun as one gets better, and this concept is being shared by the most of players who play or know VF. To me, VF's complex system and depth is what draws me into the game. VF's challenging but at the same time it gives you real satisfying feeling as you get better.


My feeling towards VF not being popular because of it's complexity is sorta whatever. It's true that the game is hard to learn, so this game is for someone who's willing to put the efforts required. If general gamers in the U.S. are the type of players who want instant results and improvement, VF wouldn't be the game for them. From my experience, this happens be the case in the U.S., and the truth of matter is you can hardly ever change the taste or characteristics of general public.


What really ticks me off is people talking about VF not being flash enough to play. VF's popularity in Korea is not even close to that of Tekken, but the reason why VF's unpopular there is it's complexity. People talk about the steep learning curve compared to that of Tekken. I've never heard of people having an excuse of not playing VF as VF being flash enough. Fighting games are not an anime. You can go watch anime if you want fireballs going across the screen and explode. Granted, different people have different taste and diffrent reasons for doing something, but I hear the lack of flashness excuse way too often to think of it as a statement from some anime fans. So many people can't see beyond what is displayed and don't even try it which makes me frustraed in trying to promote the game I love.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually can understand the flashy excuse. YOu need to understand that people want some sort of visual, visceral element to their violence. That is what fighting games are - violence, even if it is with layers of sublty and tactics. We all here have oohed and ahhed over the various attacks in VF that seemed like they really, really hurt. It would help if vf had maybe a few more ornate animations and tranisition animations to make it appear more fluid.

I think being competitive is not exactly the right word - I play plenty of games that I have no wish to be competitive in on a large scale. I think even learning VF to the extent that you can appreciate it and enjoy playing it to the extent that you feel you are in control of the situation - even that takes a lot of work in vf. Tekken, which some will argue has the same amount of depth, has a much faster reward for the initial work being put in when compared to VF.

 

flashy = why MvC2 is #1

Capcom marketing strategy to americans, combine a known fighting brandname (street fighter) with childhood superheroes (marvel), ADD BUTTON MASHING for more DAMAGE!! combine with enough lights and effects for no substantial reason, but makes you feel more powerful (30 hit combos do 20% damage? wtf).
AMERICA MUST LOVE THIS and it worked.

BRILLIANT, but exactly why it failed everywhere else in the world.

 

You hit the nail right on the head, Alex. Very well said.



This definately sums it up.

[ QUOTE ]
PhoenixDth said:

BRILLIANT, but exactly why it failed everywhere else in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

Stylish and Dramatic

Flashy?

Richard and I constantly ooh and aah onlookers who are either new to the game, unfamiliar or don't give a crap about video games in general. A long time ago we applied the adjectives "stylish and dramatic" to what went on during vf play. Comebacks...excellents...down to the wire play. The game oozes style and drama and even someone who gives the game half a look will recognize this.

Flashy?

Anybody see that new batch of inocchi matches? Anybody ever played in one of those hotel rooms on one of those vacations?

VF is plenty flashy, thankyouverymuch. I think the whole problem of following can be traced back to the success of the playstation/ps2 (and therefore the tekken franchise) vis a vis the modest saturn following coupled with an underwhelming conversion of VF3tb on the dreamcast followed by the graphically superior Soul Calibur on DC.

Don't worry though...style and drama will out. When vf5 hits the consoles we'll all mantra "use the search" and plenty of new blood will be injected into your scene and my scene and our scene and other scenes that aren't even scenes yet and each and every one of you will feel the wrath of <font color="red">Koen-Ken</font>.

Train hard. Pray hard. Count your blessings.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

I disagree. Comebacks and excellents and the like are possible in any fighter, and often more obviously to a newcomer: a reversal in DOA is big, loud, simple, and impossible to miss, versus an esoteric mindgame resulting from a low-punch interrupt in VF. Two scrubs in any other major fighting game can put on a halfway interesting show to unfamiliar onlookers thanks to more inspired animations, character designs, effects, and environments, i.e. flash. It generally takes experienced VF players like Inocchi and Minami and King to achieve the same effect, and that's flashy in spite of VF's style, not because of it.