Improving the VF scene in North America

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

vf can be flashy
but the question is can you be flashy with no effort, It seems that those games get popular in america. It is only till recently Street Fighter 3 is getting more popular in america, because players are closing the gap between the pacific. So can they now wow a public audience with a clutch parry exhibition, yes. Yet common onlookers see a 99 hit dial a combo in MvC2 and get that same WTFWOW effect.

Sadly, very few VFers have the ability that inochi, ohsu, itabashi, haijin, heruru and chibita have to wow the interests of new players. It is also not a matter of skill either, yorou, minami, napoleon, skeleton may be top tier, but to anyone who doesnt understand vf, it'll be like watching Chess on ESPN ------- PASS.

I think I can safely say that most non japanese gamers, including koreans play by the frames and is encouraged to do so as the proper way to play VF. While textbook VF effective and mentally engaging and most importantly not a wrong way to play the game, it can lead to some very drab,dry poking matches, with a heavy emphasis on a defensive posture to initiate a flowchart.

A way to balance this, is to encourage more of the psychological aspect of VF. In the chibita/itabashi sense, use the moveslist to full advantage. The reason why VF seems so dry is that players stick with the same 25% of moves they feel comfortable and SAFE with. Exploit sabakis, take advantage of the evasive properties of moves, created a heavy stagger situation - why not set up another one instead of combo or throw, do even jumping attacks, use the entire moveslist you never know what you will find.

recently we found out that leifeis ,heavy delay crushes most ARE.
Have fun using the other 70% of the moveslist, (5% for the absolutely worthless moves in vf like sarahs jumping flip)

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Aren't there other moves that make up 75% of the movelist avoided for a reason? Aren't they easy to defend and don't they leave you open for big damage? They will create flash though; the crowd will be filled with oooh's and aaah's as your opponent does spectacular high-damage combos on YOU.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

name some situations - maybe i can provide some counter arguements for some interesting discussion

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Maybe you'll say something that can help my game. Why not, I'll give it a shot.

Pai Chan - Sway step (Meishohou Stance) Looks pretty. With the back turned motions and windmill punches etc. I've never been able to make it useful. Sometimes when I find myself with my back turned already I try to go into it, but against a good opponent I never get that much time. Hence I ignore the stance.

Bokutai, Sweep, Double Palm (From Bokutai +) Is very stylish. It has kind of a kung-fu masterpiece theater look. Problem is I have never gotten the double palm to land after missing the sweep.

I don't profess to know much or even be good by VFDC standards, but for the life of me it doesn't seem than moves such as these are very useful. I would be willing to listen and try anything you might suggest.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Sway step when done at the right time, can avoid the opponent's short range attacks, such as elbows. Of course, you need to have really really good guessing skills to actually do this. One thing you can try is when you do backdashes in anticipation to make an opponent whiff, sometimes try doing sway steps instead. Another opportunity is against the opponent's rising attacks.

The double palm after bokutai sweep is a funny move. It's a sabaki that works against a variety of attack classes. When needs to happen is that you need to train your opponent to counter attack after blocking the sweep. Once they know you are not doing anything after the sweep being blocked, they will try to counter the block sweep with an elbow, for example, the double palm will sabaki the elbow and hit.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Yes, all moves in vf are really, really, great. The reason why some aren't used is not because of the element of risk/reward that all fightinggames have, no, it's cause you are boring or don't quite understand the concept of it. It has to be cause VF is flawless in every way. ;P

Keep it real - what a cheesy line it is to say but uhm,.. yeah. VF has shite moves like any other beu

/KiwE

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Myke: Hmm, I didn't know that, I just remember seeing it sabaki in one of the clips I saw.

Kiwe: I didn't say there are useful, I just gave an example of how I've seen it used in clips. If I was a pai player, I'd never use those moves unless I'm purposely screwing around with my opponent. I'd almost never use it, but the question was asked, and answered, that's all. I think you play Lion no? Do you used his +?

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

I think you guys' percentages are way off. I would say 60%-75% of each character's move set is useful and commonly used. The reason why VF is not usually flashy is because most of the moves are not flashy.

Also, I don't equate using an underused/cool looking move as flashy. In VF flashy to me is when the player has fast movement and mixups. You can look flashy using a small set of moves; Chibita is a prime example. He doesn't use as many moves as you guys say he does; he uses maybe a couple more that most Lion players don't like ++, but for the most part it's the same moves. He is flashy because of his actual playstyle, his flowcharts, and his speed.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Nah I don't play Lion Srider. I play around with many chars exept Lion/Shun but I only really know how to play Brad somewhat.

I just saw that the discussion was moving towards "name a move and I'll tell you it's good" land as a part of the "don't play textbook vf" movement ^___^ There simply are moves that are not worth using in the game. I'd argue that 4k would be one of them (if you're lucky you get to be in -2) simply cause she has other (better options). Now give that shit to Brad and I might use it lol ^_-...

Dandy - good point. That being said, one has to bare in mind that while an experienced player might be wow'ed by things like doing ATE with a knee in the face (I think) the discussion started out as "flashy" to the common viewer who doesn't understand things.

So while something like Chib doing against a Kage elbowing would mean flashy to some vf'ers it's certainly not flashy to a n00b. And overall, flowcharts and etc would probably be the same scenario.

Imho: Vf simply is not flashy save some select moves (DLC for example) and we all just need to live with it. It can / will be flashy for the trained eye however so it would be of greater importance to try and educate people into what's actually happening. That's probably why it's sooo annoying when you're "in the know" and others are not but c'est la vie.

In a normal BEU players mindset Diego is a God and Chibita is a form of bread.

+ out.

/KiwE

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

The Bokutai + was only made into a Sabaki attack in FT.

In all previous versions, the slowness of this move makes it easy to interrupt or evade.

[/ QUOTE ]

In evo Pai's Double Palm wins against opponents (some evading properties). Any other quick attack wins against it.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Have you guys seen this?

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/residentevil4/news.html?sid=6140144

[ QUOTE ]
BEST FIGHTING GAME
Fight Night Round 2 (Electronic Arts)
Soul Calibur III (Namco Hometek Inc.)
Tekken 5 (Namco Hometek Inc.)
Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Capcom)
Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks (Midway)

[/ QUOTE ]

Which game do you guys think won? Yep...Fight Night. That's the state of fighting games in the U.S. right now. Already we have seen MK branching out into action games, and SC3 looks more and more like an RPG. Not a good sign.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

It's Spike TV.

Granted, fighting games are all but dead in the US, but at least for this you need to keep in mind: It's Spike TV. They don't give two tugs of a dead dog's dick what game wins what, so long as they package it up in an XTREME MTV CELEBRITY monstrosity that brings in the corporate money and ratings.

I mean, shit, there are games that haven't been released yet vying for best in their category.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

I disagree that vf isn't flashy enough. Even a beginner who sees akiras spod or his other 3 hit combos would be wowed.

Many characters are quite flashy as well including jacky with his bruce lee type moves , aoi or goh with their great looking throws.

Even leifei has a very cool looking multi-hit throw.
( don't know the name though)

Sarah and her flamingo look great as well. And shun di is very fun to watch, even if you don't know any of his moves.

I don't think its the lack of flashiness, vf is flashy enough especially when it comes to throws or grabs. I think what turns most people of is still its difficulty.

It's just not as easy to pull off moves with random button inputs in vf compared to other games like say soul caliber 2 or tekken.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

I will have to say....... I think FT is much more flashy than Evo, unfortunately we didn't get FT here. Otherwise people would have saw those cool new moves and animations, items, costumes.... etc....

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

Just through the few vids I watch I can see how that's kinda true, mostly though better animations of moves. Or it could be the fact I'm watching uber high level play, I dunno.
Simply put, cool shit doesn't happen when you repeatedly tap a button in VF(except Jacky's Lightning Kick Combo-YEAH!).

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

I actually thought that, overall, FT had less flash. This is, of course, from someone who's never seen it running in person, but nevertheless that's my impression.

Sure, there were some interesting new moves (of which the flashiest must be Kage's new DP air combo, but many of which I still have yet to see used in actual matches) and items, but the remixes to the stages seemed to have been done not because they necessarily made them better, but simply for the sake of change. In the process, Sarah's stage lost its lightning strikes, Jacky's its dramatic spotlights. Lau's stage no longer takes place in a forbiddingly overcast downpour, but a light drizzle. These and several other stages have, in my eyes, lost their unique touches and just become mundane.

There are the FT intros, which I dislike; I thought vanilla VF4's attract modes were the most interesting and well-directed of the lot. FT's have no variety or, for that matter, sound. And then there's the sudden explosion of business on-screen in terms of giant icons and labels ("I'm using A2 and like to throw a lot") that crawl up the sides of the pre-fight countdown. They clutter up the interface to little gain, making it only marginally easier for players to size up opponents while presenting an ugly, seemingly complicated face to passersby.

 

Re: Stylish and Dramatic

king kong won 3 awards and the game came out yesterday.

NUFF SAID.

 

The effect of heritage on game popularity

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

Have you guys seen this?

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/residentevil4/news.html?sid=6140144

[ QUOTE ]
BEST FIGHTING GAME
Fight Night Round 2 (Electronic Arts)
Soul Calibur III (Namco Hometek Inc.)
Tekken 5 (Namco Hometek Inc.)
Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Capcom)
Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks (Midway)

[/ QUOTE ]

Which game do you guys think won? Yep...Fight Night. That's the state of fighting games in the U.S. right now. Already we have seen MK branching out into action games, and SC3 looks more and more like an RPG. Not a good sign.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you think about it, the U.S. has less martial arts heritage than does any Asian country. The person we call "The Greatest" at hand-to-hand combat in US history is a boxer, Muhammad Ali. It is possible that fighting games are more popular in Asian countries because they have more heritage that is rooted in hand to hand combat. The U.S doesn't even have a real heritage of sword fighting as does Europe.

In the U.S. we do, however, have a rich heritage in shooting guns. Our legendary fighters include Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, Frank and Jessie James, Doc Holiday, Marshall Matt Dillion, even Annie Oakley. Later in history we have Shotgun Kelly, Elliot Ness, Al Capone. To be an American legend you have to be able to survive in a gun-fight. Even Forrest Gump survived gunfights. If you try to fight us, we blow your ass off....and call it a fair fight.

Maybe that has something to do with why fighters struggle in the U.S. while shooters are booming.

I am not ready to say that I fully accept this as my theory, but I believe that it is a hypothesis that is worth examining.

 

Re: The effect of heritage on game popularity

[ QUOTE ]
Darrius_Cole said:

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

Have you guys seen this?

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/residentevil4/news.html?sid=6140144

[ QUOTE ]
BEST FIGHTING GAME
Fight Night Round 2 (Electronic Arts)
Soul Calibur III (Namco Hometek Inc.)
Tekken 5 (Namco Hometek Inc.)
Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Capcom)
Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks (Midway)

[/ QUOTE ]

Which game do you guys think won? Yep...Fight Night. That's the state of fighting games in the U.S. right now. Already we have seen MK branching out into action games, and SC3 looks more and more like an RPG. Not a good sign.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you think about it, the U.S. has less martial arts heritage than does any Asian country. The person we call "The Greatest" at hand-to-hand combat in US history is a boxer, Muhammad Ali. It is possible that fighting games are more popular in Asian countries because they have more heritage that is rooted in hand to hand combat. The U.S doesn't even have a real heritage of sword fighting as does Europe.

In the U.S. we do, however, have a rich heritage in shooting guns. Our legendary fighters include Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, Frank and Jessie James, Doc Holiday, Marshall Matt Dillion, even Annie Oakley. Later in history we have Shotgun Kelly, Elliot Ness, Al Capone. To be an American legend you have to be able to survive in a gun-fight. Even Forrest Gump survived gunfights. If you try to fight us, we blow your ass off....and call it a fair fight.

Maybe that has something to do with why fighters struggle in the U.S. while shooters are booming.

I am not ready to say that I fully accept this as my theory, but I believe that it is a hypothesis that is worth examining.

[/ QUOTE ]

No so true, with the rising popularity of MMA, you have new legends like Ken and Frank Shamrock, Quinton Jackson, Dean Lister, Chuck Liddel, Randy Cotour, BJ Penn, Matt Hughes, Frank Mir, Tito Ortiz, Duan Ludwig...I could go on forever. All this being said, Fight Night 2 even with all its flaws, is a good game that definatly requires a large amount of dedication to get good at.