Inbred Play

While I was talking to rich, I brought up the issue that alot of why I consider CrewNYC the better players in N/A is because we consistently play and I think good competition breeds good players. Rich mentioned that it wasn't really appliable since its inbred play, in other words we play each other over and over developing bad habits.

Actually my take on it is that once you get to a certain skill level, you learn to do different things so the players learn new things to beat each other if you play competatively. When I started playing Jacky I won alot in the beginning as people adjusted they learned how to defend jacky's moves and took alot of his strength away. So many people who consider him to be really good, most of the NY crew wont fear Jacky at all thinking Jacky is too strong, in fact he has to work hard to get a hit in. Now some will say this is inbred and against another Jacky the situation is different, but I think it takes a player who is better and has the same level or higher mentality then myself to win since I've taken jacky on and played the other NY Crew members.

So for instance, I dont fear Akira, since I've played Adam, I know how to deal with akira and what to do when things are blocked. I dont fear Kage since I've played Hiro's Kage.

So I think even playing each other we've gotten alot better. So what do you think of Inbred Play, if you play the same people over and over does that make you a better player, and can you adjust to new players easier since you've played more?

CrewNYC

On a side note, every Akira player I've met, Chicago, Toronto (Emil) I've adjusted to within the first few games and past that I can deal with Akira incredibly easily. I know what to reverse, what situations to reverse what, even paying attention to terrain and reversing the appropriate throw because of Adam. So did the inbred play help me to play Akira players? I think it did.

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

Hey Andy, I think the answer depends on how you define "better." If a group of players play to win, then often "inbred play" leads to the group as a whole becoming more competitive. If the emphasis within the group is not winning, then that group may not become dangerous as quickly.

I mean, even most of the players in Japan play within their own groups. The regulars at Kani-Spo play each other and pretty much no one else--yet it would be difficult to argue that they became weaker because of it.

ice-9

 

I think it has to do with the competition.
I dun fear Jacky(I use him), Lau, Kage, wolf, Aoi.

Cause I play against them all the time.

Against the other players....diff story.
Inbred play.

<font color=red>SummErs' 'mibu's lone wolf'

 

I personally think it depends on the approach.

I don't have a full understanding of VF (obviously), but I seriously do think it's the approach of all the players that commonly play against each other.

For instance, you guys (NYCrew) seem to strive to be as complete and masterful as you can. It is true that you can develop habits out of only fighting each other, but at the same time, it sounded a lot to me like you guys also worked hard to understand what those habits were or even break the ones you have. Being limited to a few players makes the potential to grow stronger overall slower, but I don't think it has a negative or nullifying effect. It is just likely to not grow as fast as say an environment where you have a lot of high-level competition among many people. Probably because of the focus you guys have for "absolute mastery" you guys do try to consider as much as possible where you are playing in the realm of habit versus playing in the realm of practicality. Your guys' adaptability as far as I can tell is good enough to tell me that your play isn't imbred. But when you guys face each other, you guys will play towards the habits of each other (not like it's the best example, but for instance the Chicago clip of Andy vs. Adam, I think it was Adam always going for a dodge-sidekick at the start of the round, not because of the flow of the round or that it was "bound to happen out of randomness" but because "Andy always dodges" or something like that), that's normal though. It doesn't seem to be the same for when you guys play others as far as I can tell when watching the videos. You guys are exploring the many options, exploring the "tricks" that some may consider useless but you guys work on them just in case, etc... So I don't personally consider you guys an example of Imbred play. I think you guys already worry enough about that happening that you guys do what you can to prevent it. Learning new characters and expanding your knowledge on your focus characters as well. Asking other people about stuff (it seems like you guys do this, but I'm probably wrong).

Then there's the example of me in Portland. I'm extremely happy that there are Portland players now. However, probably just me and one other guy are the only ones (I feel) that wants to try to get as strong as we possibly can in VF3. Everyone else certainly likes to get better, I don't think they want it though. More of like, it would be nice if they did get better (and they do). Some of them just because we only have about a little over 10 guys in our local VF3 "scene" but I'm probably the only one that's played all of them (trouble for us to ALL meet at once, just busy schedules). Some of them play only because they are anticipating VF4, but they know it's going to be different enough that they don't have to focus so much on VF3. For me, as far as I can tell, I'm probably gonna be playing both VF3 and 4 a lot. Simply because I like VF3 so much. But in the end, the play around here is almost certainly going to be imbred play with the only hope of it not being in two members (myself and the other guy who works really hard at the game). However, it's unfortunate that the two of us don't have a guide that has seen others play or explain what's going wrong. I have to figure that on myself and it's hard given the low level I am at.

Anyways, back to the main point. I think it depends on the situation. The NY Crew have a group consensus to get as good as they possibly can and they acknowledge imbred play being a possibility (I think) and so they try to prevent it and it allows them to have that potential to get stronger and adaptable. I think they've already proven that they can be pretty adaptable on North American standards.

-Chanchai

 

Hmmm - good topic!

Yep - I definitely agree that playing consistently is a big factor in improving your own gameplay. However, imbred play exists. In the NY situation, you are playing more than one person consistently tho, right? Or is it just Adam and Andy 90+ percent of the time? This is crucial. If it's more than the two of you, then you are avoiding imbred play to some extent. But it's still there, in fact, it cannot be removed.

I feel that playing competitively (ie play to win style) breeds more imbred play actually. You're trying to win - you're going to try and adapt as fast as possible to beat that person down. And, you're likely going to stick to your new 'pattern' because it has beaten him. Now, you're not going to adapt faster than your oppponent so once you've figured him out, he's going to have to change to win against you. If you anticipate change in your opponent's behaviour prior to them actually making the change in their gameplay, you'll likely lose. Arrgh...it's getting complicated to follow...sorry, you all get what I'm saying right? Essentially, if ain't broke, don't fix it!
I feel that competitive play this leads to hyper-adaptation on gameplay - and this overall contributes to you being accustomed to a certain style of play. This is why I think it could be difficult against other play styles.

Now, you could all be super-extreme gods at VF by now, who knows? For some reason, I felt the level of play in NA had already reached the top region of the learning curve and that a lot of time yields significantly smaller leaps in skill, etc.

ok - one more thang!

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I mean, even most of the players in Japan play within their own groups.

<hr></blockquote>

But Jeff - how big are the 'groups' you're referring to? I don't think they're the size of the typical 5-6 players (max) groups that exist in NA VF. I have a feeling they're much much larger. And, should they want to play outside of their groups, there's a million others at a similar level of play ready and waiting. There's just more staple competition there and because of that, there's a huge diversity in styles, etc.

cheers - not sure if any of the above made sense....just rambling

Oh! Andy, you know there's only one way to explore this issue effectively eh?
Catch my drift?

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

There's basically only 2 VF'ers left in Denmark. When I play the other one's Akira with my Pai, you're going to see him connect with a rediculous number of DJK's seemingly out of the blue. This is because he's played my Pai so damn much, he knows I'll be inashi'ing in a lot of the common situations - so he really only has b, f+G+P+K, bodycheck or SJK/DJK to choose from when at close (standing) quarters if he wants to do a knockdown/decent damage.

He knows my Pai well enough to take advantage of it by doing stuff other's wouldn't dream of doing, but works perfectly. As such, he has an advantage over me that another Akira of equal skill would lack. Does this help him against other Pais tho? That's the real question. I think it's very likely that having played exactly - and ONLY - my Pai, decent as it might be, will put him at a disadvantage vs. most others', in regard as to what he will be expecting from them. But having played my Pai to death is a helluva lot better than not having played any Pai at all.

Playing against different styles will help you against such, and playing against the same guy over and over will help you against him. The foremost will help you in an overall way, and the latter will help you specific way. Thus, both have their advantages, and if you omit one of them, you suffer the disadvantage of not gaining that advantage. Make sense?

It's better to stay in shape than just rusting away, even it means one developes a few bad habits. If you have the talent, and not just the experience of 10.000 games against the same Akira day after day, you shouldn't have a huge problem adapting to combat new and different styles. If you do, you're just a good player against that certain Akira, and not overall.

Only meeting other players will bring out the truth

- Jan

 

"cheers - not sure if any of the above made sense....just rambling "

You said it. If I wrote this post Bungle would be on me worse than a cheap suit.

-Emil

 

nah. i agree with most of what llan wrote.

 

So what did u not agree with?



<font color=red>SummErs' 'mibu's lone wolf'

 

upon further review, etc, etc, i agree with everything he says.

 

I almost completely agree with you..however, there is a flip side. When you only play against a certain group, you tend to tailor your skills to playing against them. One of the hardest things I have to do when I goto NYC to play against Andy or Adam is changing the way I approach the game and my style.

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

But Jeff - how big are the 'groups' you're referring to? I don't think they're the size of the typical 5-6 players (max) groups that exist in NA VF. I have a feeling they're much much larger. And, should they want to play outside of their groups, there's a million others at a similar level of play ready and waiting. There's just more staple competition there and because of that, there's a huge diversity in styles, etc.

You're right, they are much larger, although there does tend to be sub-groups within the Kani-Spo gang. For example, members of the Beat-Tribe teams tend to stay together and there's maybe 6-8 core people in that sub-group.

I think we can all agree though that the worst type of inbred play is one fostered by the CPU. Brrr.

ice-9

 

strange, but recently after doing nothing but screw around on the cpu for literally months i've done really well in person. nyg1 and some trips to toronto.

 

*sigh* I wish I can say the same!!!

ice-9

 

Okay im going to combine replies to jan and to llanfair...

the last sentence I couldnt agree more with you on jan, the only way you can find out is to play more players...

In the case of Playing adam's Akira, I have the same disadvantage as you. Having played adams Akira so much , he can pretty much hit me with a few rediculous moves....maybe not a random jumpkick, but certainly with enough bodychecks/super dashing elbows...etc..but conversly playing his akira has made me much better at playing all akiras I think. Take emil for example, he has a great akira, or Jo-Shun back when I was still playing pai all the time. I had no problem playing their Akiras and adapting to their style since I knew what the situations were...

BTW llanfair, when you think VF'ing ability has reached its peak you see people play and you may think wow, its gotten way better...

Do you kind of rememeber the Chicago gathering, we were good players when we visited toronto the first time, but between toronto and Chicago my pai and Adams Akira changed monstrouly in skill. I developed that pai rush that I was using all the time...

Lastly I think I agree when you play to win you do everything you can to win sometimes developing bad habits but other times, I think once you get to a certain level of the game, its not about using different moves really, its about wit, how fast can you outhink your opponent. Thats when all the advanced techniques come into play, and thats also when you begin to realize that you can beat players who do not use these techniques easily. You really can see that you can manipulate the sitaution greatly....like I can tell when they will block, when they will duck, all types of things...but when you keep adjusting by using things like fuzzy blocking, and escape throwescaping, I cant tell a pattern...and it does become a raw skill game again...

Its invigorating to play adam's jeff for instance, and now that im playing Jacky/Akira, its reignited my interest alot.

CrewNYC

 

"I think once you get to a certain level of the game, its not about using different moves really, its about wit, how fast can you outhink your opponent. "

And with pai, it's all about outwitting ur opponents.
Which I had so much fun doing last night.
FOOTWORK MAN!
FOOTWORK!

<font color=red>SummErs' 'mibu's lone wolf'

 

Not strange.
I improved so much after playing the US cpu.
Forces me to do double throw escapes, reversals and such.(things I never bothered with in the past)
And with the US cpu, I was able to weed out any bad habits I had, cause the AI would just punish the hell outta me.

But, I get what ice is trying to say.
Some ppl are just more affected by it I guess.

<font color=red>SummErs' 'mibu's lone wolf'