Interpreting VF4 Frame Data

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by jason_krueger, Mar 6, 2002.

  1. jason_krueger

    jason_krueger Member

    Having finally been directed to the actual frame database after searching for so long, it was incredibly disappointing that the whole page was lost on me, and that I could make little sense of it.

    First of all, this is the way that I interpret Tekken frame data, and hopefully from this you will be able to tell me where VF4 data differs, and what it really means.

    Exec: the number of frames required after the button input before the move connects, and this is always a positive number.

    Block: the number of frames of advantage or disadvantage after a move is blocked, a negative number signifies that number of frames DISADVANTAGE, whereas a positive number signifies the frames of ADVANTAGE given. Example, Hwoarang's 1,2,3 in Tekken 4 gives +4 advantage, ie. 4 frames of advantage on block.

    I suppose counter and hit frames speak for themselves.

    I know this is only a minor question that requires but one reply from somebody who is familiar with the data, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Yes, that's exactly right.

    Other things to note are that all normal (not catch) throws execute in 8f, so any move that leaves you standing and is -8f when blocked or higher leaves you open to be thrown. (Of course, this also depends on pushback factor... some moves create enough distance between players when blocked such that the defender is no longer in range to throw the attacker).

    Most characters' punches execute in 12f (some light characters have 11f Px; Wolf and Jeff have 14f Px), so any move that is -12f or worse and leaves you standing is both throw and P counterable.

    Most elbow class attacks are 14f, so any move that is -14f or worse and leaves you crouching is elbow counterable (and you get staggered in the process).

    Again, all the above is in general, some moves have specific requirements (e.g. Lion's d+KK is not elbow counterable but sidekick counterable because the elbow doesn't have enough reach).
     
  3. Mizkreant

    Mizkreant Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    First of all, this is the way that I interpret Tekken frame data, and hopefully from this you will be able to tell me where VF4 data differs, and what it really means.

    Exec: the number of frames required after the button input before the move connects, and this is always a positive number.

    <hr></blockquote>
    Yeah, that seems right.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Block: the number of frames of advantage or disadvantage after a move is blocked, a negative number signifies that number of frames DISADVANTAGE, whereas a positive number signifies the frames of ADVANTAGE given. Example, Hwoarang's 1,2,3 in Tekken 4 gives +4 advantage, ie. 4 frames of advantage on block.

    <hr></blockquote>
    That's also correct. It seems you have a grasp of the definitions so I don't see what you're confused by. Maybe if you post a specific example, it'll help more. Maybe you're just surprised that so many moves leave you at a disadvantage?
     
  4. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    are you just confused that the numbers might look very different from Tekken? In terms of the actual advantage/disadvantage frames per moves. I'm not familiar with Tekken framestats in terms of the exact numbers, but the setup is about the same in terms of the definition of Guard Advantage, Hit Advantage, MC (Counter Hit) Advantage.

    -Chanchai
     
  5. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    Just to clarify things.

    The frame advantage/disadvantage (ie. the +4 or -4) is referring to the attacker, not the defender. In most cases, you should see a negative number in the blocked section.

    Also, where are you getting the frame data from?
    www.virtuaproject.com has a complete frame database for every character.
     
  6. jason_krueger

    jason_krueger Member

    Thanks again to all of you.

    I just realised what an idiot I am and that my browser was skipping lines, ie. pushing the negative symbol to the line below, so from my point of view it looked as if though Sarah's d+K left her with a 14-frame advantage on block rather than disadvantage.

    And yes, being an avid Tekken player, I was surprised by the advantage and disadvantage given by similar moves, such as the weakness of a 1,2 string in VF and the strength of the 1,2 in Tekken and the importance of the low jab.

    Thanks again, and sorry for wasting your time.
     
  7. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    """Thanks again, and sorry for wasting your time. """

    Dun be sorry about it..I'm pretty sure no one felt their time was wasted when they decided to help you...as long as you're really interested about it.

    Have fun...
     
  8. mushen

    mushen Well-Known Member

    This was a good post for me to read since I never understood frame rates and how they were defined. This is a good start for me. Thanks for all that contributed in the discussion.
     
  9. mushen

    mushen Well-Known Member

    Ok, I'm a bit confused after looking at the frame data on virtuaproject. I don't know how to interpret the "Frame Adventage data". Let's use an example on what I am confused about and maybe someone can help me out here (I tried looking at other posts but I got even more confused.. sorry)

    Akira's low punch (d+P).
    block -4
    hit +3
    counter +5

    So if my oponent blocks it, I'm at a 4 frame disadvantage? And if I hit him(no counter), I'm at a 3 frame advantage? What does that mean? I'm thinking, "Ok I hit him and he blocks it, it will take me 4 frame before I can do anything (excluding buffing next moves), but if he doesn't block it, it will only take me 3 frames to recover. However if I hit him with a mC, then it will take me 5 frames to recover? WTF" I guess I see it as the term "Recovery (aka Hardening)" I saw in another post. So what's the point of having '-' and '+' signs?

    I get even more confused when I see the frame data for low kick (d+K).
    block -15
    hit -6
    counter 0

    So I guess my reasoning above is not correct because on a mC I get ZERO recover time!!!?? Voot!!!! (yeah right). So if someone can tell me what the plus and minuses mean, it will help a lot.

    -mushen
     
  10. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Think of it more like this...

    Any negative number is a disadvantage to you. Like the LP example, if it's blocked, you're at a 4 frame disadvantage.

    Any positive number is a disadvantage to your opponent. Again looking at the LP, if you get a regular hit, you're opponent is at a 3 frame disadvatnage, a counterhit puts them at a 5 frame disadvantage. This basically means that you can start your next attack a few frames before they can do attack or defend at all.

    Something with 0 advantage means that both of you would recover at exactly the same time.
     
  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    What does that mean? I'm thinking, "Ok I hit him and he blocks it, it will take me 4 frame before I can do anything (excluding buffing next moves), but if he doesn't block it, it will only take me 3 frames to recover. However if I hit him with a mC, then it will take me 5 frames to recover?

    The correct way to say it is...

    "What does that mean? I'm thinking, "Ok I hit him and he blocks it, it will take me 4 frame before I can do anything (excluding buffing next moves), but if he doesn't block it, I recover 3 frames ahead of my opponent.

    Meaning, if you see a +X, you have X frames in which you can move before your opponent.

    Conversely, if you see -X, you have X frames in which you are behind the opponent.

    Thus, advantage/disadvantage statistics are not "hardwired" frames of recovery. I.e. a move could require 20 frames to recover, but if the attack can cause enough stun to the opponent such that the opponent needs 25 frames to recover upon blocking it, that means you have a +5 frame advantage when that attack is blocked.

    Hope that's clear.
     
  12. mushen

    mushen Well-Known Member

    Ice-9 and everyone else...

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Thus, advantage/disadvantage statistics are not "hardwired" frames of recovery. I.e. a move could require 20 frames to recover, but if the attack can cause enough stun to the opponent such that the opponent needs 25 frames to recover upon blocking it, that means you have a +5 frame advantage when that attack is blocked.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I think I see it now, but I want to make sure. So let me repeat what I think you said and see if I got it. So let's use your 20 frames "recovery/hardwired" data for example and add the advantage frame data to it to get a "total frame data" for the move based on the situation. And the move is low punch with block -4, hit +3, count +5, 20 frame recovery. (hypothetically, since I don't know this info but let's use 20 for example sake)

    I hit him and he blocks.
    -It will take me 24 frames to totally recover while it takes him 20.

    I hit him, he does not block, not mC.
    -It will take me 20 frames to totally recover while it takes him 23 frames.

    I hit him, mC.
    -It will take me 20 frames to totally recover while it takes him 25 frames to totally recover.

    Is this correct?
    Also, I guess it is not needed to have the "hardwired" recovery data by itself without the conditions of how the move is connected (unless you MISS!!!), but it will help to make it comprehensive.

    So how come these "hardwired" recovery frame data aren't included in virtuaproject, like for the instances when you miss your move? Example with low punch again.

    Execution: 12
    Hardwired Recovery (didn't connect): 20
    Total frames: 32

    So because I missed, my oponent will have a +20 advantage. Right?

    Also, it would be good to know "hardwired recovery" frame data with the advantage frame data so you'll know how many frames you'll have to do your buffering. Right?

    Example: For low punch example I know I have:
    32 frames to buffer if I miss or hit w/ or w/o mC. (12 + 20)
    36 frames to buffer if he blocks (12 + 20 + 4)

    But let's say I do the body check and the hardwired recovery frame is 50 (pulling the number outta my ass), execution 13, block -27, hit -20 (again searching up my ass), counter 0.
    63 frames to buffer if I miss or mC (13+50)
    90 frames to buffer if he blocks (13+50+27)
    83 frames to buffer if I hit (13+50+20)

    If I had this data, I would know that I would have much more time to do my buffering/setup the next move when I do a body check vs a low punch.

    Side note:
    Also I understand there is a frame rate for that I'm not accounting for in my "total frame rate calculations" which is "Collision" (frames during which the move connects, causing damage/stun. Normally a very small number. Or the number of frames where the move may 'hit' the opponent). So how come I don't see that data on virtuaproject? Just trying to understand the reasoning why certain data is not included in the stats. I'm not trying to be a dick or be unappreciative or anything... like "what's up with these lazy asses at virtua project not including everything.."

    -mushen
     
  13. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    And the move is low punch with block -4, hit +3, count +5, 20 frame recovery. (hypothetically, since I don't know
    this info but let's use 20 for example sake)

    I hit him and he blocks.
    -It will take me 24 frames to totally recover while it takes him 20.


    In general, a move's recovery time is always the same. (There are exceptions.) If we're under the premise that low punch takes 20 frames to recover, then the above should be:
    It will take me 20 frames to totally recover while it takes him 16.
    Your low punch always takes the same time to recover--it's constant. The block/hit stun is what is variable, and this is where the +/- advantage times come from.

    I hit him, he does not block, not mC.
    -It will take me 20 frames to totally recover while it takes him 23 frames.


    This statement is correct except I want to be nit picky about one thing.
    mC is a minor counter == hitting someone while they are in recovery phase
    MC is a major counter or interrupt == hitting someone while they are in execution phase

    AFAIK, minor counters get the same advantage as regular hits do.

    I hit him, mC.
    -It will take me 20 frames to totally recover while it takes him 25 frames to totally recover.


    Yes, again correct except that this is an MC not an mC.


    So how come these "hardwired" recovery frame data aren't included in virtuaproject, like for the instances when you miss your move?

    The constant recovery times were not made available to us. The VP movelists are translated from the "black book" and "blue book." I'd like to see the recovery times too, but they weren't released. If the formula for block/hit stun is published, we could probably use an inverse function to generate a list of recovery times. In general, you can easily see how much time you have after each move with a little experimenting. Simply whiff a move on purpose and buffer in a forward/backward dash during it's recovery. Your character will do the dash as soon as possible after recovery ends.

    Example with low punch again.

    Execution: 12
    Hardwired Recovery (didn't connect): 20
    Total frames: 32

    So because I missed, my oponent will have a +20 advantage. Right?


    Actually much, much more. First, you forgot the 1 or 2 frames of hit detection. Second, because you whiffed, your opponent is never stunned. He's free to do whatever he wants during the entire time 33 frames (assuming 1 frame of hit detection) of your low punch animation. This is why it's theoretically possible to low throw a whiffed low punch when you anticipate the low punch coming. The advantage stats are useful because they indicate who can move first and how much a head start that player has. Both characters are stuck waiting--either in block/hit stun or recovery time.

    The hit/collision phase frame information is also not published AFAIK. I'd also like to see this info just out of curiosity... I'd like to compare different kind of sweeps for example--maybe it would explain why some track better than others.

    Mushen or anyone else, keep asking questions if you're confused about something... If the stats don't jive right with how you "feel" the game is working, it might be a mistake in the blue book, or even a typo on the VP movelist. It's a ton of data, and there are bound to be mistakes when such tables are produced.
     

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