Introduction

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Dragon, May 29, 2002.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Member

    Hi Guys,
    I'm new here and i thought i'd introduce myself and also ask some questions. I'm Benjamin and i am from Holland, please tell me if i wrote something wrong in English because then i can get better at it /versus/images/icons/smile.gif. I'm 14 years old and i'm just on high school (my 2nd year).
    Now, i have some questions:
    -I'd like to play a quick and agile character that can dodge and reverse, strength doen't matter, what is a good pick for me ?
    -are the moves you learn in the command training really all the moves?
    -What is a good way to train an A.i.?

    My Best Wishes
    Dragon
     
  2. Mike90210

    Mike90210 Well-Known Member

    Welcome to VFDC! If you want a quick character that can dodge and reverse try Pai or Aoi.
     
  3. Dragon

    Dragon Member

    Thx for the reply, can you also tell me something about the other two points ?

    My Blessings
    Dragon
     
  4. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    The command training move lists are not complete. There are a few moves missing. They also have some incomplete/inaccurate/misleading information concerning a few of the commands. I don't bother with the A.I. so I can't answer that question. This is a bad forum to use as a means of improving grammar. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  5. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    First learn how to do basics. My teacher suggested Jacky to me several years ago. This is still good advice. After you have learned to use jacky then try Vanessa. Excellent jacky movie at Daioh ( sorry about the spelling) . You will find the lnk through Media icon above. The Jacky player has over 10,000 matches. There are presently two active links and the second one has Jacky. Top one features a good Van player. On PS2 VF4 disk there is a replay feature. There you will find a good example of Van game play from one of the world's most dedicated players and now also a good teacher, chibita-san. Then go to link for ShinZ movies that you will also find with the search feature. ShinZ is also one of the world's great VF players and he, like many of his buds is always working to perfect the distancing for fight advantage. Some would argue that these are the two best in the world, Dragon. Some call chibita G%d. Out of respect and awe. If you are concerned with a having lots of variety then Van should not disapoint as she has an extensive movelist and you will find substantial . good luck. good basic advice from a legit 9th Dan ( arcade Japan) is found at: <a target="_blank" href=http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Lion>www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Lion</a>
     
  6. Dragon

    Dragon Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    thx for replying nycat,but why do they call him D%g, what does it mean ?
     
  7. solfizz

    solfizz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    hey man,

    I think they call Chibita a "god" because he's so good at vf.

    For a starting character with those abilities, I think Pai would be your best choice.

    *not only is Pai nimble. she is hot, has nice-looking and easy-to-perform (AND varied) combos, has two sets of reversals(one that do straight damage, and the other allowing you to setup for extra damage off the stagger), and is an extremely fun character to use.

    In short, I think ANYONE using Pai to start off will have a blast playing her.

    *The only moves I can think of which are not outlined in the in-game training are Aoi's lying face up reversal and the reversals for certain characters who display a different reversal animation against right/left limbs.


    *as for A.I. i really can't help you but i remember before that others on this site and on gamefaqs.com's forum the directions to making a good A.I. For gamefaqs, statistically every now and then someone asks the same question so you should occasionally check vf4's front page on that site, if you can't get immediate help here.
     
  8. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    *The only moves I can think of which are not outlined in the in-game training are Aoi's lying face up reversal and the reversals for certain characters who display a different reversal animation against right/left limbs.

    There are quite a number of other missing moves. Just to cite a few: Lion's PPb+P; Kage's f>b,b>f+P+K+G; Jacky's backturned D+P (which is quite different from his backturned d+P); Sarah's backturned uf+P. There are others as well.
     
  9. solfizz

    solfizz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    cool Deniz,

    are all the moves shown in vfdc's movelists?
     
  10. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    are all the moves shown in vfdc's movelists?

    No, but the specific character Command Lists (not the the VFDC "General Guide/Movelist") are by far the best current source, at least in English. The lists are Myke's lists, and he has done an amazing job of trying to keep them useful and up to date. Given the difficulty of obtaining the information and the scale of data involved, it is virtually inevitable that such a complex set of lists will contain errors and omissions. Some of us have been trying to help him by providing "errata" information and comments so that he can update/improve the lists, but he makes the final decisions (rightfully so) as to what goes on them. At times he has disagreed with suggested entries, believing they are more appropriate for a character specific guide or FAQ, so they have not appeared on the lists. Also, the process of reviewing all of the characters' moves (which I have been involved in) is not yet quite finished, and I believe it likely there will be a few more recommended additions. All of the discussions, including rejected moves, are documented in the forum.

    BTW, an obvious set of moves missing from the PS2 VF4 training modes are the various rising attacks. So far Myke has not indicated any inclination to include them in the VFDC lists either. If this remains true, I am planning on making a post "listing" them in the near future.
     
  11. b4k4

    b4k4 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    SoundReason
    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    Also don't forget Lion's P+K+G, it's his quick jab (methinks it's one frame faster than a straight P), I think that there's more than one character who has a fast P+K+G jab too... I just don't remember who...
     
  12. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    Also don't forget Lion's P+K+G, it's his quick jab (methinks it's one frame faster than a straight P),

    It's not. Its' one frame or so faster than a B+P(G). It automatically G-cancels the punch series (which enables you to get the next move out faster, if you don't want to continue with a Px sequence), but keeps Lion stationary. Its properties make it ideal for an MC.

    I think that there's more than one character who has a fast P+K+G jab too... I just don't remember who...

    Aoi, Sarah, Lau, Wolf, Lei, Kage, Pai (for Pai, you can alternatively simply press P+K), and Akira (you must press P+K for his).
     
  13. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    It's not. Its' one frame or so faster than a B+P(G). It automatically G-cancels the punch series (which enables you to get the next move out faster, if you don't want to continue with a Px sequence), but keeps Lion stationary. Its properties make it ideal for an MC.

    Do you, or anyone else, have proof or test results which conclude that the P+K+G is faster than a P or B+P or F+P?

    From testing that I've done (somewhere in the lion command list errata thread) I found the P+K+G to be identical in speed as other P variants. I doesn't save time with the built-in G cancel either because when you G-cancel properly/efficiently, you're pressing G during the execution of the P, so you're not wasting frames for input post-execution. And I'd like to argue that it's hardly ideal fo MC situations too, since you don't move forward at all; when you're on the offense you usually want to advance forward so that distance doesn't become an issue should you decide to followup with a throw, or a fast mid move (like a knee) which doesn't have a lot of range.

    Nobody I've played with, nor discussed the game with in great lengths, has had anything positive to say about a P+K+G punch. It's nice to know, but if you don't, then you're really not missing out on much.
     
  14. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    Do you, or anyone else, have proof or test results which conclude that the P+K+G is faster than a P or B+P or F+P?

    Nobody I've played with, nor discussed the game with in great lengths, has had anything positive to say about a P+K+G punch.

    Have you played with or talked to ice-9? This is a direct quote from his Lion Rafale Dojo here at VFDC:

    Quick Standing Single Punch :: P+K+G :: High :: 10 :: ****

    P+K+G is a better version of P(G) in that it executes a frame or two faster.


    Notice that he gives it a four star rating. And that quote is also the basis for my statement about its quickness. I thought quoting from experts is a legitmate method of argument. If you can't rely on ice-9, who can you rely on?

    And I'd like to argue that it's hardly ideal fo MC situations too, since you don't move forward at all; when you're on the offense you usually want to advance forward so that distance doesn't become an issue should you decide to followup with a throw, or a fast mid move (like a knee) which doesn't have a lot of range.

    I was about to say I'll bow to your expertise, since you know much more about the game than I do; but then I realized I got into this in the first place because I accepted someone else's expertise. So I'll just say that there are attacks in which the opponent advances towards you, that I have found are easily and safely interrupted by remaining stationary and not moving forward. The stationary aspect makes it harder to get countered or reversed if you guess wrong. It's an option for moments when you choose to be safe. It's not necessary to go on the offense automatically when seeking an MC, as your comment implies. You can make a safe poking move, and if it connects against an aggessive opponent, then launch an offensive. If there is no MC, there is no offensive, but there may also be no ducked punch that is countered by a d+P, and no reversed P either. Then again, I probably don't know what I am talking about, so you are right, it's useless for an MC. Hopefully ice-9 will amend his dojo accordingly so that those of us who use it as a guide are not further misled...

    I might also add that the quality of a move has nothing to do with its legitimacy on a move list. Just look at the thread on useless moves (as I recall, Myke, you contributed Kage's db+K to it). And these P+K+G moves are probably no worse, nor less worthy of inclusion, than the B+P variants that appear on the Command Lists. In fact, as I've argued before, Lau can't do a B+P; the P+K+G is his substitute.

    BTW, for those still interested in these types of moves, I might mention that several characters have back turned versions of them as well, such as Jacky's (back turned) f+P, and Sarah/Wolf's (back turned) P+K (which can even be done from a crouching position, something that can't be done with Sarah and Wolf's normal back turned P attacks).
     
  15. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Notice that he gives it a four star rating. And that quote is also the basis for my statement about its quickness. I thought quoting from experts is a legitmate method of argument. If you can't rely on ice-9, who can you rely on?

    <hr></blockquote>

    No offense intended to Jeff, but he's not a Lion expert. I believe he made this statement relying on Lion's p+k+g still being faster than his standard p from VF3. However, I am of like mind with Myke, in that there is no difference framewise between Lion's p and p+k+g in VF4.

    -Jason
     
  16. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    I agree there is no difference framewise between a P and a P+K+G and said as much earlier. But I did think there was a difference framewise between the P(G) and the P+K+G; that's what I was arguing. And there is certainly no difference framewise between Lion's F+P and his P, or between his (near) P and his P...
     
  17. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    So, are you saying that p(g) recovers faster than all of Lion's other p's? This would be an interesting discovery.

    -Jason
     
  18. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    No offense intended to Jeff, but he's not a Lion expert.

    Okay, but I was just responding to Myke's comment that no one he has spoken to or played with has ever said anything good about the move.
     
  19. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    So, are you saying that p(g) recovers faster than all of Lion's other p's? This would be an interesting discovery.

    No not at all. I was under the impression, and perhaps it is wrong, that a P(G) takes a frame or so longer to complete than a P+K+G, thus making the P+K+G "quicker" overall. I wasn't referring to recovery time only. I assumed that for the P(G), that you have the recovery time of the Punch itself, plus whatever time it takes for the G input to recover. But with the P+K+G, you only have its recovery (equivalent to the P Punch's recovery time) to consider. I think if you re-read my posts with a little less interpolation, and stick to what I've actually said, you'll see what I mean. That doesn't mean I am right; only that you keep inadvertently changing what I am trying to (rightly or wrongly) assert. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  20. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Introduction 4 n00bs

    Also, so there is no further confusion, my referencing Lion's F+P and (near) P were just an allusion to the fact that they appear on the Command Lists separately from the P, even though they are really all the same move with at best extremely minor variations. Most of the Command Lists also have B+P entry as well.The P+K+G move (for those characters having it), IMHO, is not the same as a P, and has more unique properties (good or bad) than the listed varaints, yet is excluded. As I've also implied, in the case of the Sarah/Wolf back turned P+K versions, the ability to be executed from a crouch makes them even more independent from the "normal" P entry.
     

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