Is there any defensive character?

Hullo...

These days I play Sarah. I've been advised to play more offensively, and been told that Sarah is an offensive character.
I believe it, judging by her almost complete lack of reliable defensive tools.

I used to play Aoi and I liked to use her reversals, but apparently most Aoi players just keep attacking non-stop thanks to their cancels. So I guess that she's not a defensive character.

I find no satisfaction in being aggressive. I'd much rather display my skills through defense and reaction.

So is there any character that is seen as a defensive character?
The lower tier it is, the better. And I hope that the answer isn't Lei Fei.

Thanks.

 

Yah, a significant part of Sarah's power comes from flamingo stance. You can't block in stance. No defense there... in stance, you're looking to force your opponent to guess wrong by aggressively pressuring them.

I think Aoi can definately be used affectively as a defensive character. She has a good throw game, and the threat of being able to reverse so many of her opponent's attacks may make an offensively aggressive opponent think twice.

The characters with strong throw games can all afford to be defensive IMO. (Wolf, Jeff, Kage)

The characters with strong long range attacks can too (Vanessa, Wolf, maybe Kage) but some people find it frustrating to fight someone that always backs away to create distance. It's a valid tactic, like DMPK and low punching, but may get tedious or boring to play against if you abuse it.

 

IMO you don't need to use Flamingo that much with Sarah (in fact, most would be better off staying away from with it). I think she has a very good low risk - medium reward game along with phenomenal punishment game. Playing defensive is more in the player then the character, but you can definitely play Sarah in a defensive manner.

 

Aoi is the best defensive character in general. She can catch any attack with her normal reversals and Ying Yang stance catches a lot of different attacks as well without the player thinking too much about a high or mid reversal.

 

What are you some kind of low tier hero, did you only pick Sarah because she's the weakest character?

You going about this all wrong.

You can play any character in the game in a style you want, although some characters have things that help accommodate or lend themselves to more defensive minded players. If you want a character that has a bunch of different defensive options, past the conventional stuff, even some you can do while holding down G, pick Vanessa and play in her defensive stance. She has a bunch of different ways of defending herself.

I'm sorry she's pretty strong in the game though, so maybe you don't want to use her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Yeah. Flamingo is generally not a very good idea outside of switchkick. It's cool if you want to pick apart advanced defensive techniques though... or want to go for alot of flash. I wouldnt say her game is low risk, because the attack properties of the moves are holes themselves(lots of single limbed moves and just things that can get reversed alot). Her frame punishment game is through the roof, never miss a beat.

 

I would say aoi is prolly the most defensive character. I guess. Then perhaps goh. But that is the great thing about vf5. There aren't definitive rolls u can lock characters into. There is no most defensive character. There is no most offensive character. There is no weakest character. It really is all about how good you are, and how capable u at the different skills u want to use. Good luck.

 

I believe the word "defensive" can be interpreted in many ways. The reversals and sabaki the OP hinted at is only one amongst the many interpretations of "defensive play". As mentioned by Jeneric, playing "keepaway" is another. Shun's drink management is a variation of the above. Blocking until you get an opportunity to land your monster throw is a third interpretation as Yupa mentioned. And i have to add that playing "morally" is yet another variation of "playing defensively". In that respect Slide's Sarah is certainly defensive, always stepping away, hitchecking and poking with elbows /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

As you've mentioned, you can be reversal happy with Aoi or you can abare with her... g-strings /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif Ahem. You can block all day with Jeffry trying to nail that splash mountain or you can abare with knee. Or, in my case, agressively guessing sabakis from vane's DS while safely poking from OS with her fuzzy-safe /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. To that effect, when asked about vanessa on xbox live i refer to her stances as "Default Stance" and "Other Stance" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

To sum things up, the characters themselves are not completely "offensive" or "defensive", they have a wide variety of tools that allows for different playstyles. Why, i've even come across PeleliuCorner who plays a defensive Lei Fei /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

Shun is the most defensive character in the game. Also one of the best.

ps. I disagree with Jeneric about Sarah. EDIT: I seem to disagree with Slide as well.

 

You mean about the flamingo usage?

Personally it's too high risk.

When it really comes down to it, personally you don't want to use it that much outside of the jab or the sweep, and the switchkick entry is too good of a move especially when you can hitcheck the CH for PK link.

Manji, watch some Tournament Sarahs, flamingo is used a lot less in favor of a more conservative style.

But in the end it's still juts all about reading correctly, and flamingo is an amazing thing when you've got dat 'yomi' lol

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EDIT: I think R fixed this though, especially with that new knee she has in flamingo, which looks like she put it in for conservative option to check.

 

Hell yeah.
Or more seriously I just don't like to think that my character gave me an advantage.
But I forgot that the majority of people here don't seem to believe in tiers.

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Some of you have said that Sarah has a great punishment game. Now that's what I'd like to do. But I didn't realize that she could do that well.
Could anyone explain the general idea behind her punishment game?
Or if there's a place where I could find info on that?

I assume that there must have been a discussion somewhere, but in that case I missed it.

So far my punishment just consists of using the 33K combo after a whiff or an evade, or if I feel that they're going to cancel a move or do something slow. It's rewarding, but I fail and get punished about 25-50% of the time...

Also, what can she do against pressure?
People say that she can't do anything special, and needs to rely on basics. Is it supposed to be block, 2P, P and DM?
Because peope also claim that her P is lightning fast, but even THAT keeps getting interrupted by opponent pressure whenever I try to stop them. (And against Vanessa and Jacky, it's probably not a great idea.)


Some of these characters' defensive games are obvious, like Shun's, but what could make Goh suitable for defensive play?


Thanks for all the replies so far.

 

By character tools alone, I'd have to say that Goh, Aoi and Vanessa are the top three "most defensively oriented" characters. I will say they have the most moves purely designed to "defend" or "counter"... Shit... Throw Pai in there too.

Those are just the main characters, IMO as always in theory fighter, that have moves (other than evade) they can use to "attack" from a deep disadvantage. By attack, I mean do something actively to reverse or counter a predicted attack attempt; other than block, which I think is more passive. This would often be with sabakis (or maybe reversals in Pai's case) but also moves that dodge a certain attack level during start-up like Lion's 4P.

All of the characters in VF5 have many moves that can be used defensively. I consider Lei a pretty offensively oriented character but he has some great defensive options as well.

A common theme with these defensive moves is you can predict a certain attack and take a risk to turn it into damage or advantage for you.

 

Lots of talk about sabakis and reversals in here, do people really consider those good defensive options?

 

hm I'd consider those to be more counter-attacking options.

 

some of them are, like pak sao (since it's fuckin braindead and half of the time it option selects, lol).

but aoi's category specific reversals and goh's shitty ass sabaki's? not if you ask me.

 

Which ones are those? Don't bring R videos into this as she is COMPLETELY different in VF5R..

ps. Goh's shitty-ass sabakis? Which ones are those? The ones he can combo 90-ish damage off from?

 

That tier thing is also a double edged sword, and used as reasons for winning and losing. Just use who's the most fun for you to play.

Her punishment game is good based on frames, she's a hit reliant character, stuff needs to make contact normal or counter hit, or it's trouble. Punishing guarantees you not getting guarded.

She has:

PK
6P+KPK
6PK
6_KP to float
2P+KK
33K

Sarah is dope because you don't need to be using throws for punishment, her best punishes come from strikes that give knockdown/floats or advantage. And if you're good with hitchecking, which powers Sarah through the roof, then you can stop these moves short before you get destroyed if you used them at points where it's possible your opponent could guard them.

Sarah doesn't have anything to deal with pressure, outside of the conventional stuff everyone else in the cast already has access to. That would be, fuzzy guard, crouch dash fuzzy guard, throw escaping, evading throw escape guard, and attacking to avoid throws, etc. Block, 2P, P, and DM are just 4 of the choices available to you, unfortunately it's not always a wise idea to use the latter 3 because they can be stopped generally with the fastest mids and circulars available without a guess on your opponents part, for example with the proper advantage a full circular mid would beat 2P, P, and DM all at once, a half circular mid would beat all of these too but would require your opponent to know what side you evade to. Read the system wiki on this sites menu on the left sidebar to find out how to specifically do the better conventional defense stuff.

 

Are you serious

Is this news to you?

Take your pick though, I think Sarah was underused in tournaments in vanilla, or she just never made it far, or the footage you can find rarely if ever has Sarah in it anyhow. Most notably was SBO07 where I think the Sarah player was K2, nothing but throws and Serpent cannon, lots of stepping movements. I think there were a couple videos floating around with YOU, where he kept it down to elbows, P4K, and 0fs. I remember an Amusebeebee tournament Sarah actually made an appearance in, and oddly enough, Step Stance was used over flamingo vs Blaze.

Again btw, switchkick is widely used because it's a terribly good move in Sarah's movelist.

 

Yarp, this thread has me confused as to what is and isn't defensive in VF5.

All I see is people talking about reversals/sabakis and punishing attacks.

Oh and there was a brief mention of backwalking speeds, fuzzy guard and ETEG... From this thread though I guess they're classed as offensive?

 

If you're talking about inashis and sabakis, I will have to disagree that they make a character defensive. On the contrary, they can be used to extend a character's flow charts. Wolf's SS is effective at avoiding highs, even mids sometimes. His /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a great anti-low. They have the same effect as sabakis in my mind, but Wolf is hardly a defensive character. I don't know how you think that Pai is defensive. She is definitely offensive and has been pegged by some as abare. Vanessa to me is offensive even in DS. The stuff she uses in disadvantage such as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, the elbow that sabakis, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif are used to continue offense. Vanessa players attempt to elicit a certain response from the opponent when they use them. They may put themselves at a disadvantage on purpose to lure attacks in. And if the opponent remains neutral an attack will still come out. Her backwalking into /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif might be construed as defensive, but I think she is offensive overall.

I don't know if you can call any character defensive, since pure defense is using techniques that everyone has access to, such as ETEG, fuzzy guarding, etc. Reversals are defensive, as they are used (almost) exclusively to defend against attacks and you have the throw escapes you can buffer into the animation along with it. However, they aren't used with enough frequency to make a character defensive. I'd say the closest thing to a defensive character might be Aoi, since her Ying Yang Stance is such a common part of her defense. There are guaranteed attacks from using its inashi property, but it isn't offensive per se like her QCF /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Moves that deal with attacks without causing direct damage are defensive in my mind. I mean, if they were offensive then a successful evade could be offensive as well.

 

Yes and I agree with him. Sabakis are more of a counterattack option (Attack from disadvantage) and someone who wants to 'play safe' wouldnt really be using them.