It's not fair!!! What are SOA doing with VF4 Evo?

I went to SVGL today(Oct 11th), and couldn't find the VF4 Evo machine since they took it away last week. Okay, that's not what I complain about SOA, because I can wait for the final version. When I was there, I saw many people waiting in line for playing a new Sega racing game, Initial D, and everyone had more than one cards of that game in hand. Here comes my point:

SOA made a US version card system for a racing game but not on VF4 Evo !!!

I hope that people in SOA will see this thread and do something which we US VFers look forward for a long time - Give us the US card system of VF4 Evo !!! PLEASE!!!

 

Initial D's card system is not online. All data is sorted on the cards them selves. I can only assume SOA just doesn't want to go through the trouble of setting up VF.net in north america. I don't the the tough part is the arcades, I think the tough part is translating the service to english and setting up the servers.


cheers,
kbcat

 

n also..initial D is quite 'unplayable' without the cards.

Think of it as playing VF4 with broken joysticks...

 

I know initial D is not online. I don't really care if VF4 Evo is online or not, because what I care is the card system only. Imagine that you have a card system like initial D which can only storage data locally, and I believe it will interest many people to "raise" their characters in VF and play in arcade more often. Until now, I still see people keep waiting in line for playing Initial D.

The reason why I complain is I don't think it's really that hard to run a VF4 Evo and have a card system in US. Why am I so sure? Because one of my friends in Taiwan who bought a complete VF4 Evo set with card system said he can run the card system and save all characters' data without logining onto VF.Net. If SOA is really willing to make it, they can just use the same card system in Japan without any change, and they don't even need to setup anything!!!! Is it that hard? I don't believe it.

 

I think that's a good point. Cutting out VF.NET, as it would SURELY cost SOA a lot of money in America considering the number of users it would get. But storing data local to cards (wins/losses/rank only) is pretty easy to do.

Do keep in mind though, that SoJ put a lot of pressure on arcades to get connections with when upgrading to Evo. With Evo, there are no quests, missions, or prize matches on non-connected machines. Also, your rank apparantly doesn't change after Tsuwamono unless the machine is connected and both cards are registered -- at least that's the word now.

 

Howard,

since you asked me in the media section what I thought of US VF4 Evo getting no cards, I wanted to reply here.

Since it's obvious that AM2 could make the VF.net system work in other countries (either with a simplified version like Initial D's or the complete Japanese-style system), I think the real question is only why aren't they doing it? As much as I hate to say it, the answer is money.

To bring the system to other countries just isn't a good investment (in the short term) for AM2. Remember, AM2 is it's own company now, even though it's still a part of Sega. Yu Suzuki is president of AM2, so it's up to him what happens. I'm sure if Yu decided that every VF4 in the world was to be sold with some kind of VF.net built in, as a requirement (like Initial D) that's how it would be.

With about 100-200 real VF fans in north america, and I'd guess a few hundred in Europe, and a few thousand in Asia, I just don't think AM2 sees it as being worth the time and money they'd have to put in. I bet less than 50 Evo kits will sell in the US. Even though the PS2 version of VF4 got great reviews in the US gaming press, and sold well, people still aren't interested in playing the game in the arcade.

Does SVGL have a Hypercade (or maybe it's Ultracade)? It's a machine with about 50 or 75 older arcade games built in to it. At SHGL, people play that game all day, playing Street Fighter 2, Champion Edition, and Hyper Fighting. At UCLA there's also a Hyper Fighting scene, they have tournaments. Those games, even thought they're 10 years old, make more money in the US than VF4 ever will. I've talked about this with my Japanese VF friends, and asked them why they think it's this way. Thier opinion is that "American people don't need shugyo at game".

That means, American's don't want to play a game where training, or practice is a part of the experience. I think when fighting games were new, people in the US learned to play Street Fighter. To US gamers, I think that SF is what a fighting game is, period. All other fighting games are just off-shoots of SF to americans, so things like Guard Buttons, using a lot of throws, 3D, those are all just seen as being different or strange, because it's different from SF.

I think American people want to be able to sit down, make fireballs and dragon punches and see the character do cool things. They can even do that with Tekken, but in VF you have to practice to make them do cool things, you need shugyo. I think most americans would rather just go back to SF than have to re-learn how to play a fighting game, or what a fighting game is.

Another thing is that I think since only hardcore fans of VF are going out to arcades to play, it can be intimidating for new people to get in on it. I see a lot of people who are curious and watch, since they can learn what to do that way, but not many who step in and play with experts. The other day at SHGL (the last day they had the game), a couple guys seemed really interested in learing about the game. They watched for a few minutes, then finally one of them decided to play with us. He picked Lei Fei, a good choice for a beginner. My friend, (who shall remain un-named) was using Lau, and proceeded to mercilessly slaughter the guy, giving not even one free hit or throw. He won three points straight, and I think two of them were excellents. The guy using Lei was smart I think, as he didn't go crazy on the buttons, he didn't panic, he just kind of tried to defend himself, unsucessfully. My friend didn't smile, didn't say anything, just shredded him. I think the guy just felt "wow, I'd have to play this game a lot to get okay at it".

If you wanted to learn boxing, and you went to the boxing gym, and they said "okay, get in the ring", then they got one of the best boxers in the gym and that guy just beat the shit out of you, saying "you want to box right, this is boxing, fight!" how would you feel? As someone who wants to learn something, would you be encouraged by that? No teaching, no encouragement, no chance... I'm not saying what my friend did was wrong, but I wouldn't want that done to me. I usually try to make it a close fight with beginners, so that maybe they'll come back. I guess I feel that we're partly to blame as well.

I was lucky to get into VF at a time when there were a lot fo people playing VF2 in the arcade, so you could always find people who were worse, even, and better than you; and you could practice accordingly. I learned to play by asking people what to do, and using the same character over and over for months, until I could beat most of the people at the pool hall.

I remember when I first saw VF2, I was at Broadway arcade in NYC, and I was playing SF2X, and I told one of the guys who worked there (NYC people probably know him, he kind of looked like Brandon Lee and he had hair about to his shoulders, he used Fei Long at SF2X and did the 270 flying kick a lot) that I wanted to learn VF2. He told me if I came on a saturday, he would teach me. While I never took him up on it, I don't think that could happen now with VF in the US.

Now, you have to find people in your state (probably through this board), meet up with them once a week, etc. The VF scene in Japan is just so different from how it is here. Really, if you want to play VF and enjoy it fully, you'd have better luck changing your life so that you could live and work in Japan than you would trying to get the VF scene here to be like it is there, even if you only want VF.net. To do the first, you just have to change your life, to do the second, you have to change American video game culture, which has arrived where it is today after 20 years. If you want to enjoy video game culture in America on a massive scale, you should play Grand Theft Auto. Almost any american can talk to you about that game. If you want to enjoy fighting game culture here, you have to play Marvel vs Capcom 2 (which I don't even really think IS a fighting game, I think it's an action/shooting game).

Playing Initial D is kind of like playing street fighter, you know what all the controlls do, you know what's going to happen if you push the pedal and turn the wheel right. You just have to adjust to this version's feel. VF is like playing a driving game with a clutch and a "tire damage" system. People who practiced would know that it was much more fun, deep, and rewarding. But most american people would say "I don't like that clutch bullshit" or "it sucks that your tires get fucked up". Then they'd go back to Initial D. If there were a card system for Dance Dance, I'm sure they'd bring that to the US, too. If Marvel vs Capcom 3 has a card system, I bet we'll see it here.

If we want things to change, we have to change them. Did any one person from VFDC write to Sega Enterprises or AM2 begging them to bring the VF.net system to the US? Do we organize tournaments at arcades? Do we encourage new players to get into the game? Do we go to the arcade every day pumping cash into the machine? After the PS2 version of Evo comes out, we'll never go again, just like last time. In japan, the real scene is in the arcade, PS2 is for practice. I think the same is true of MvC2 in the US.

I know it sucks, but I think it's easy to point fingers at Sega and say they're doing wrong by us, when really it's very complicated, and we're part of the problem as well.

Spotlite

 

Excellent post spotlite.

 

Do we organize tournaments at arcades? Do we encourage new players to get into the game? Do we go to the arcade every day pumping cash into the machine?

Toronto did and does all of these things. the scene is healthy and alive. I suspended all thoughts of approaching Sega for VFNET since we have tried on numerous occasions to get their attention and the best we could do was some posters and some Sonic T-shirts; the shirts came the same time we had visitors from all over the globe participate (hi Colin!). If I ever chanced to meet the upper echelon I would broach the subject but the mass of slow, wage slaved people intervening is just too dis-heartening. bleah.


you're right though. The problem is far deeper than SEGA only. Which means that it is almost entirely out of the hands of grass root choices and initiative. Uphill all the way, baby.

GE

 

I completely agree with your statement on VF4's learning curve. This is one of the main reasons for the lack of a VF scene in America. Since most gamers IMO tend to be casual gamers (or at least not hardcore), they're less likely to choose a game like VF4, where extended training is required. They naturally gravitate towards games like Tekken and MvC2, which contain plenty of eye candy while having an easier learning curve.

Unfortunately, the arcade scene in the U.S. will never be what it was in the early 90's IMHO. Due to the vast improvement in home console technology, arcade machines are all but obsolete in the minds of most casual gamers. Sad but true. /versus/images/icons/mad.gif

 

Thought this would be interesting in this context and goes along with what Howard was mentioning about local-domain card system.

Apparently, in Portland's own Tilt arcade at Lloyd Center, a lot of people have been playing Soul Calibur 2. However, they've mostly been playing it single player. Furthermore, they're pretty much only playing it in Conquest mode.

I can't truly elaborate since I don't play the game much, but I've heard the attention that machine is getting from that single mode on that game is damn good and the credits on the machine have been racking up well throughout the summer because of that.

-Chanchai

 

Your right Chan, its been a pumping quarters into SC2 season since it debued in Montreal. People always play the conquest mode and love having their records.

 

I found this old post while searching for VF4:Evo locations in Southern California. I thought that I might respond to a few of Spotlight's points, hope you all don't mind.

Spotlight wrote:

That means, American's don't want to play a game where training, or practice is a part of the experience. I think when fighting games were new, people in the US learned to play Street Fighter. To US gamers, I think that SF is what a fighting game is, period. All other fighting games are just off-shoots of SF to americans, so things like Guard Buttons, using a lot of throws, 3D, those are all just seen as being different or strange, because it's different from SF.

This is absolutely untrue, in my opinion.

First of all, Street Fighter 2 is an immensly popular game and well-known by most people, simply by virtue of being the first succesful fighting game in North America. It was ported to a variety of common systems and thus has a huge userbase of people who know how to play it. Thus, if anyone has a Street Fighter Tournament there is going to be a large turn out. I think if you actually asked people what their favorite fighting game is, it would probably be Soul Calibur. I doubt that Capcom's "glitter and flash" 2d fighters would be chosen very often.

Secondly, Americans (or anyone) don't like to "practice" (put themselves through drudgery) for no applicable benefit. VF4 is a deep, complex, and highly tactical game. It is also often abitrarily hard for no reason.

The problem with Virtua Fighter is that is asks the player to do too much practice for trivial play mechanics. When I finally got to 2nd Dan and started really needing to do Throw Escapes, I was forced to sit in practice for 2 hours doing the same few moves over...and over...and over...simply to get the timing right and drill the technique into my head. This was not fun and, in retrospect, it was not worth it. I simply was forced to spend too much time repeating boring and mundane tasks in order to get "good". This sort of thing may work well in Everquest but it's simply not acceptable in a fighting game.

Let me go back to Soul Calibur for a moment. I believe the reason for it's popularity is not because it's the deepest fighting game out. In fact, most of the people who play it will admit that there are deeper, more tactical games out there (most of them will mention VF when they do this). However, they will say the reason it is their favorite is because it's not impossible to get into. There's a learning curve, but it's gradual. With a few exceptions, the moves are straightforward and easy to do. There are very few canned combos to memorize, and countering, throwing, and parrying -- all things that VF4 includes -- are much easier to do in Soul Calibur. And this is why SC has such popularity. It has most of the play mechanics of a deep game without requiring mind-numbing drudgery to master them.

And frankly, games that stress easier-to-execute moves are, in my opinion, more tactical. Rather than wrestling with the controls or deciding the game on reflexes, it encourages tactical gameplay.

I love VF4, but I can see why my friends don't play it with me and I end up playing Guilty Gear or Soul Calibur with them. VF4 simply requires too much time and effort for no return. VF4 does not exist in a vacuum -- there are other games out there that are grabbing for the same marketshare as VF4. I really think that AM2 should look at strengthening the tactical fighting and complexity of the game without adding needless joystick-twirling and finger-twitching.

Just my opinion.

 

You have basically just proved everything Spotlight has said in his post. Mainly the 'don't like to "practice"' part. I understand your way of thinking as I know many Tekken players who feel the same way. Unless American gamers are willing to accept the high level of hand dexterity and dedication needed to play VF4, there will never be a big fan base in the US. If you don't feel that VF4 is a tactical or necessarily demanding game, simply put, don't play it. Knowing that when someone is good at VF4, they really do possess the skills and knowledge required to be good is part of the fun of playing VF4. If your friends don't have what it takes, don't feel bad, as many of us are lone advocates as well. If you continue to be interested in VF, I suggest you use this same sub forum to find some local events or gatherings to play against other people who likes VF. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Knowing that when someone is good at VF4, they really do possess the skills and knowledge required to be good is part of the fun of playing VF4.

For the majority of people, these skills are NOT a fun part of playing VF4. That's why it's failing in the mainstream. And my point was not to refute Spotlite's assertation that the States don't like to practice -- it was to say that they don't like to practice because it requires hours and hours of drudgery to do something that most other fighting games let you learn in 15 minutes (Throw Escapes, for example - compare Tekken's method vs VFs, the end result is very simular but VF4's requires much more dexterity and speed).

How many times have we all seen, "I got to 1st Dan and I haven't been able to get farther. This is too hard, what can I do?" Or, "Jacky is too good, what can I do?" The fact that we see these same complaints, over and over, indicates that there may be legitimate problems with some aspects of the game. But rather than say, "Yes, this might be a problem," we instead say "You're not serious enough" or "Practice more!" Hell, look at Spotlight's friend above, tearing apart a new player -- for what purpose? I'm sorry, but that was nothing more than virtual dick-waving. I know if that had happened to me, I would not be enjoying VF4 today.

Anyway, your response made me realize that my problem is that I want to see a niche product that I love get the mainstream success it deserves. I think it could be done without compromising the core qualities that make the VF series great. Sadly, it seems that mastering the arbitrarily hard system seems to be a point of pride with most VF players. Frankly, being impressed that you can perform Akira's SPOD consistently strikes me as the same sort of nonsense as being proud of your (virtual) items in Everquest, but I guess to each his own.

Thanks for responding, and I really did take your point to heart.

 

"""I think if you actually asked people what their favorite fighting game is, it would probably be Soul Calibur. I doubt that Capcom's "glitter and flash" 2d fighters would be chosen very often""""".


I think there are more american gamers that play third strike, cvs2, and mvc2 than soul calibur. /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif Soul calibur is not that popular. After nationals, it will die down even further.


As far as practicing to throw break. Well, you don't have to do it. You can just find ways to not get thrown. Hell a player from this los angeles tourney won without using throw breaks. (forgot the name)

""""""""Secondly, Americans (or anyone) don't like to "practice" (put themselves through drudgery) for no applicable benefit."""""""""

I've seen people practicing parrying in third strike, guard impact and repelling in soul calibur, roll cancel combos in cvs2, and infinites in mvc2. So I don't think americans hate practicing. Practicing throw breaking is applicable. Just my thoughts. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

Spod is not a big deal.

I think the part of VF that takes the most training is the guessing game. Breaking down the game to a serious of situations with possible outcomes and making sure you get the best reward out of all of them. This the part that blows most american players away in my opinion. If you dont believe me, ask you self this question: What should you do after you block akiras dashing elbow?? The answer to this question is what makes VF hard. NOT SPOD!

 

In a sense, VF players do seem like elitists. I do not deny that perception. VFers should take pride in their hand dexterity and being able to input command with ridiculous timing and accuracy, as such as any bemani games players deserve. To many, it seems pointless and unnecessary in a game. It is true that many of the requirements needed for basic gameplay elements in VF4 is very demanding for someone who is fresh to the series. It is an obstacle that must be conquered inorder to reach high level play, just like being able to do just frames, roll cancels, triangle jump etc in various other fighting games. What is important, however, is why people play games. Do we play and like the games we play because it is easy to pick up and fast to learn? Or do we play games because of the fun and excitement we experience during gameplay? For me at least, the reason is the later. I too have had the same complaints, such as "throw escapes are too hard, jacky is not fair." As I play the game more, however, these issues slowly dissolved, and what I was left with was a fighting game that is meticulously balanced, and a vastly deep, intelligent and rewarding fighting engine.

For me, seeing my game improve as I play more and more was one of the highlights of my fighting game experiences. So now, the issue that hours of practice and drudgery is a negative aspect of the game, is that a problem with the player? or a problem with the game? This trait of American players is clearly reflected in the game playing/buying habits of of the US market. In countries such as Japan, VF4 is the mainstream fighting game.

Personally, I don't think Japanese people are just inherently better at games, I think the problems lies in the fact that games are seen as trivial activities in the US. Who would ever think games require practice and time?! I always hear people tell me at the arcade that VF4 is a masher game, and that they can easily win. Or they say things like they characters are imbalanced. Why do they say this? Did they spend enough time with the game? Did they take the time to even look at a list of gameplay mechanics of the fighting system? The answer is an obvious no, or else they would never have made that comment. Their concept is proven wrong immediately when played against a veteran player. So then what is the logic answer to players who say they can not get past 1st dan kumite characters, or that the game is unbalanced?

There is a simple comparison between VF and other fighters. People say jacky is too strong, yet the the best players in japan uses akira, lion, wolf, kage, lei fei, pai, lau and pretty much the whole cast of characters available. Games like tekken or marvels, strong characters are used very often, almost as to simply stay competitive. I don't think I have ever seen Lei wulong used in any high level T4 play among many other characters. This shows you how wrong some of the claims are against VF4.

But the point of fighting games remains to win. If you are clearly a better player than your opponent, there is no reason to not win unless people are just messing around. Being able to win with superior skills should not be a negative practice in fighting games. People are using more damaging juggles, bug exploits, unique team combinations, just frames, etc in other games in hope that they are doing something that the opponent can not deal with or can not do for the purpose of winning. Being able to throw escape, ETEG, crouch dash, are all just tools that anyone who play this game can use. People spend hours learning and fighting just frames, infinites, in other fighting games, and they don't complain about that. In a sense, playing fighting games is a way of virtual cock-waving, why do site like www.shoryuken.com exist? People that can't handle losing in a fighting game probably will not have the motivation to become better, and complaining about the game is a way to shift the blame, maybe to mask their inadequacies. It is easier to simply go back to a game that is more comfortable for them to play instead of starting from the bottom again. VF, being a very foreign game to the US market, is very susceptible to this condition.

That partly contributes to why that in the US, VF is a niche product. Many people bought it because of the raves from magazines, and magazines raved it maybe to make them seem credible. It is really too bad that VF have not gone mainstream as it deserves. But it seems that people are beginning to realize the credibility of the VF series as a truly deep fighting game, hopefully people will begin to take the time and effort to discover what this game really rewards you with.

I am not discrediting fighting game players of other titles, as I play other fighting games in addition to VF. It just bothers me when people discredit VF as a true fighting game with the same caliber as any other fighting game, if not more. Most of the people I know who at first denies VF, after seeing how much depth this game offers, are overwhelmed and shocked at the discovery, and thinks it's too much to handle. It truly is hard to find people in the US who will take the time to practice and learn this amazing game. For me, at least, wish that Sega/Yu Suzuki stays true to what he intends this game to be and the people who love this game, instead of changing the engine just to make some money.

P.S. After learning to do the SPOD, you can go to the local arcade and pull it off and impress people in real life, a virtual item in EQ is just... not a real thing. Try being able to do Akira's knee, then you can cock-wave at even VF players. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Try being able to do Akira's knee, then you can cock-wave at even VF players

[/ QUOTE ]

No man, being able to make Aoi eat four knees after an Mc (with a knee)...

Then u can wave a cock around ^__^

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Being able to throw escape, ETEG, crouch dash, are all just tools that anyone who play this game can use

[/ QUOTE ]

To Waterboy :

I don't see how that makes VF so different just becoz we have to learn how to do the above mention in a competitive environment. (yes I am aware that ninjinsan wrote the above, but anyway..same stuff that is mentioned by ppl who finds VF too 'bothersome'...thus, failing to see the 'light')

It's just like KRC in CVS2, parries in 3S...charge cancelling in SC2 etc etc etc ...n the list goes on.

U can enjoy VF even without all knowing all the technicalities, just like how ppl can play cvs2 and enjoy at the same time without knowing how to KRC etc etc etc~

complaints such as 'i cannot get past 1st dan' ...to me is kinda weird.

Say in SF, my local champ is a guile player...n I cannot beat him. Does that mean guile is too unfair? Or that beating guile requires more effort, so the game becomes unfun when u're playing against guile? What would happen if I comes back n say..' man, takes too much effort to beat guile, JESUS!' How would u view
me as a gamer?'

One that is not motivated enuff to learn? or agree that beating guile is too much of a hassle, citing that there is an inherent problem with the game?

So realisitcally, I'll have to learn tactics against guile, figure out where my weaknesses are and just improve my game

The same applies for VF.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Who would ever think games require practice and time?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was well put. This is how I've always envisioned many of the differences in NA and Japanese gaming culture. The perception of video games here is a huge part of the reason that VF, or any other skilled game for that matter, doesn't thrive as it does overseas.

cheers,

 

Some of the others have stated it already, but I just want to make sure the point is driven home.

Learning VF is not necessarily more difficult than any other fighting game.

Frankly, I find the "motor training" in Tekken to be much more difficult than VF, and I also feel that one needs to memorize so much more in a game like SC than VF in order to be competitive. Anyway, I've written much about why the latter is true so I won't repeat myself here. That said, a lot of "learning" stems from your comfort base. Mine is VF, so maybe that's why I find Tekken and SC not easy to learn. Yours is not VF, so maybe that's why you are irritated with learning how to throw escape.

And let's not even talk about 2D games like CVS, MVC, KOF, or even SF3! Some of the combos in those games are mad hard.

Finally, one does not need to learn the "advanced" techniques in VF in order to be competitive. I know many people who don't E-TEG for example and win a lot (what they would do is alternate their defense...throw escape, just guard, dodge and one throw escape, etc.). In fact, I often see the opposite effect...players trying to do too much with these advanced techniques and playing sloppy.