Jacky's Version C Command List Errata

Discussion in 'General' started by Deniz, Apr 29, 2002.

  1. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I've gotten about 75% of the way through Jacky's list, enough to start a thread:
    1. I believe the damage for the F+P version of the Straight Lead needs to be changed from 10 to 12.
    2. Okay, this one I post with some trepidation. Back in the "Sarah's Move List" thread, Myke quite emphatically stated that Akira can reverse Jacky's b,f+K+G Middle Spin Kick, and in response to a query from Yupa, SummeRs said Pai could reverse (and Inashi) it as well. I've got to say this has me all perplexed, since my testing shows this is not true -- neither Akira nor Pai can reverse it; but Aoi can, as a mid-crescent reversal. The reversal level of this attack should thus be corrected from MK to MC.
    3. Damage for the PPf+P Combo Elbow should be 19, not 18.
    4. The reversal levels of both PPf+PPK and f+PPK should be changed from HK to HC.
    5. The reversal levels of both PPf+PPd+K and f+PPd+K should be changed from LK to SW.
    6. The reversal levels for the Double Spinning Kick, for the Middle Kick, for the Step-in Middle Second, for the Switch Spin Kick, for the two Barrier Kicks, and for the Step-in Sword should all be updated from MK to SK. I haven't been able to test the Step-in Iaigeri yet. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
    7. The reversal level for the P+KK Spin Kick should be changed from HK to HC.
    8. The reversal level for the f+P+KP Chopping Left Combo should be changed from HP to MP.
    9. The reversal level for the db+P+K Lightning Storm 1 needs to be changed from MK to KN.
    10. The Elbow (ascending) Hopping Attack's reversal level should be changed from EL to MP.
    11. I don't believe either the Step Hook Kick or the Step Heel Kick (listed with MK reversal levels) can be reversed.
     
  2. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    SummeRs said Pai could reverse (and Inashi) it as well

    <hr></blockquote>

    Har?

    When did i say that? I've always told everyone this particular move is not reversable...btw, what the hell is this the step hook kick or the step heel kick?

    Gah...english names!!!!!!!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif
     
  3. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    SummErs, here's the quotes from the thread /versus/images/icons/frown.gif:

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    2002/03/31 01:49
    Re: Sarah's Move List [re: Yupa] Reply




    ""throw works if they Guard the K+G surely must be some compensation? """

    Aieee yupa...CPU never did it to u?!!!
    That's how I found out!~

    Regarding the reversal animation...well..even though it hits mid, Jacky's leg comes from above...thus the animation is...errrr

    U know, high kick reversal animation

    "" if you aren't willing to invest the effort to try and learn anything about the game on your own, you don't deserve our help to get better""

    Dodee

    Edited by SummErs (2002/03/31 01:52)

    Post Extras:

    Yupa
    (addict)
    2002/03/31 02:17
    Re: Sarah's Move List [re: SummErs] Reply




    Ack! I was hoping it was like a side kick and it would be over and done with.... <grumble>

    Anyway, I sent Myke a PM on this... on the virtuaproject list, if I change the rvrs column to "sk" for Jacky's b,f+K+G it will be correct, right? It's a mid-level reversal and Lion's meteor punch does not work against sk attacks. Unfortunately, it violates the animation rule I was trying to define... errr...

    Hmm... can Pai reverse Jacky's b,f+K+G... if the answer is no, this royally sucks.


    virtuaproject
    Use the Search, Luke.

    Post Extras:

    SummErs
    (old hand)
    2002/03/31 02:34
    Re: Sarah's Move List [re: Yupa] Reply




    yes she can

    grab leg..toss JAcky to the side...yummy~

    Inashi works as well....good fun.

    "" if you aren't willing to invest the effort to try and learn anything about the game on your own, you don't deserve our help to get better""

    Dodee

    Edited by SummErs (2002/03/31 02:36)

    <hr></blockquote>

    Anyway, that's not important. I'm just glad you agree. At least I am no longer baffled. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  4. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    btw, what the hell is this the step hook kick or the step heel kick?

    Those are Jacky's two hop kicks. The Step Hook Kick is the ascending/mid hop one, and the Step Heel Kick is the descending one.
     
  5. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    i wasn't specifically referring to his b, f+k+g

    i was taking abt his other mid kicks. obviously I wasn't paying attention the other time when i posted....

    gah..never mind.
     
  6. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    More Jacky stuff:
    1. Also in need of updates from MK reversals to SK reversals are the (reverse stance) PK Punch Sidekick and the back turned (reverse stance) PK Turn Knuckle Side Kick.
    2. The reversal level for the D+(KK) Double Low Kick should be corrected from SW to LK.
    3. The frame stats for the PPK Double Punch Snap Kick are obviously wrong. -6 for Execution?
    4. Since I seem to be about the only one here concerned with the preciseness of the command notations, this will probably seem captious, but here goes anyway: Similar to what occurs with Lion's db+PP, there are several Jacky two move combos that require the joystick to remain in the same position for both moves, or have the joystick returned to the same position for the second move. The listed command notations and lack of an explanatory note for the Double Spin Knuckle (b+PP), Step-in Middle Second (df+KK), Slant Low Spin Kick (db+PK), and Turn Slant Low Spin Kick (d+PK from back turned), do not properly show this. Compare these with the way Lau's Upknife, Super Knife is annotated. Or see in Pai's list how d+KK denotes the Low Kick, Heelkick, whereas D+KK is used for the Low Kick, Sweep. Sorry for the rant. It's not that important except for us novices...
    5. Similarly, it would be nice if there could be a note appended to D+K Low Kick indicating it can be done from standing by inputting db+K.
    6. The back turned Pd+K entries have the wrong "Name." It appears that "Turn Knuckle Side Kick" got accidentally repeated from the entry above them.
    7. Contrary to the notes, I don't think the d+KP Fake Toe Slant requires an MC to cause a Trip, nor does the ff+K Dash Hammer Kick require an MC to cause a Stumble.
     
  7. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    SummErs, I understand. As I said, it's not important at all. I certainly make my share of careless posts. The only reasons I had for mentioning it were because it appeared that Yupa was going to make a change on the VP list, based on the discussion, and plus when people with the stature of you and Myke say something VF-related, it makes me unsure of anything I find that contradicts what you've said. I was concerned I had overlooked something, as I sometimes do. I sincerely apologize if my comments inadvertently caused you any awkwardness. No slight was intended in the slightest...
     
  8. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    ah plz Deniz...

    It was no problem at all....I was wondering myself when I said it hehehehe /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    when people with the stature of you and Myke say something VF-related, it makes me unsure of anything I find that contradicts what you've said

    <hr></blockquote>

    Nah, don't worry abt posting ur point of view. Just go ahead. We're not 100% correct all the time...(I only wish we were~~)
     
  9. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    1. I believe the damage for the F+P version of the Straight Lead needs to be changed from 10 to 12.

    Yep. Corrected.

    2. Okay, this one I post with some trepidation. Back in the "Sarah's Move List" thread, Myke quite emphatically stated that Akira can reverse Jacky's b,f+K+G Middle Spin Kick, and in response to a query from Yupa, SummeRs said Pai could reverse (and Inashi) it as well. I've got to say this has me all perplexed, since my testing shows this is not true -- neither Akira nor Pai can reverse it; but Aoi can, as a mid-crescent reversal. The reversal level of this attack should thus be corrected from MK to MC.

    Corrected.

    3. Damage for the PPf+P Combo Elbow should be 19, not 18.

    Corrected.

    4. The reversal levels of both PPf+PPK and f+PPK should be changed from HK to HC.

    Corrected. Also corrected typo from Sping Kick to Spin Kick.

    5. The reversal levels of both PPf+PPd+K and f+PPd+K should be changed from LK to SW.

    Corrected.

    6. The reversal levels for the Double Spinning Kick, for the Middle Kick, for the Step-in Middle Second, for the Switch Spin Kick, for the two Barrier Kicks, and for the Step-in Sword should all be updated from MK to SK. I haven't been able to test the Step-in Iaigeri yet.

    Corrected. The Step-in Iaigeri should be SK as well, since the only difference between the Step-in Sword and Iaigeri occur post-hit.

    I've also removed the Notes on frame data for the G-cancel since after some experimenting I've found it to be incorrect. It originally read "tap G between the 8th and 15th frame" which doesn't make sense if the move requires 24f to execute because that'd be way too early. So I spent a bit of time with slow motion and command display on and found that I could sometimes cancel on the 24th, 25th, 28th, 29th frame, but never on 26th or 27th! And then I was sometimes getting iageri on frames 30 and 31, and sometimes not!? I was looking to define the range of frames where you could G-cancel for the Iaigeri, but this wasn't looking good at all, and actually, seemed random. But then I stopped looking at frames, and paid more attention to what was happening on the screen, and came to this conclusion: the iageri kick is performed by pressing G during the hit. So, the timing will vary depending on how far/close you are to the opponent when your kick is extending to hit them (and during my testing I was all over the place with regard to range). Also, it doesn't matter if you tap or hold the G button either. With this new way of looking at the timing (think of it like a hit-throw), my consistency has greatly improved. I've updated the notes accordingly.

    7. The reversal level for the P+KK Spin Kick should be changed from HK to HC.

    Corrected.

    8. The reversal level for the f+P+KP Chopping Left Combo should be changed from HP to MP.

    Corrected.

    9. The reversal level for the db+P+K Lightning Storm 1 needs to be changed from MK to KN.

    Corrected.

    10. The Elbow (ascending) Hopping Attack's reversal level should be changed from EL to MP.

    Corrected.

    11. I don't believe either the Step Hook Kick or the Step Heel Kick (listed with MK reversal levels) can be reversed.

    Agreed, and corrected.

    ________

    1. Also in need of updates from MK reversals to SK reversals are the (reverse stance) PK Punch Sidekick and the back turned (reverse stance) PK Turn Knuckle Side Kick.

    Updated.

    2. The reversal level for the D+(KK) Double Low Kick should be corrected from SW to LK.

    Corrected.

    3. The frame stats for the PPK Double Punch Snap Kick are obviously wrong. -6 for Execution?

    Corrected. (columns were offset)

    4. Since I seem to be about the only one here concerned with the preciseness of the command notations, this will probably seem captious, but here goes anyway: Similar to what occurs with Lion's db+PP, there are several Jacky two move combos that require the joystick to remain in the same position for both moves, or have the joystick returned to the same position for the second move. The listed command notations and lack of an explanatory note for the Double Spin Knuckle (b+PP), Step-in Middle Second (df+KK), Slant Low Spin Kick (db+PK), and Turn Slant Low Spin Kick (d+PK from back turned), do not properly show this. Compare these with the way Lau's Upknife, Super Knife is annotated. Or see in Pai's list how d+KK denotes the Low Kick, Heelkick, whereas D+KK is used for the Low Kick, Sweep. Sorry for the rant. It's not that important except for us novices...

    There's no need to apologise. I really don't believe that with the moves you mentioned, it'd be impossible for a novice to be able to perform the move in under 20 seconds given their current representation on the VFDC command lists, which just so happen to be identical to the official command lists. The command lists should not be a substitute for actual play, and I don't want to over-complicate the representation of every move just so that it's mathematically correct.

    5. Similarly, it would be nice if there could be a note appended to D+K Low Kick indicating it can be done from standing by inputting db+K.

    Added.

    6. The back turned Pd+K entries have the wrong "Name." It appears that "Turn Knuckle Side Kick" got accidentally repeated from the entry above them.

    Yep. Corrected to "Turn Knuckle Low Spin Kick".

    7. Contrary to the notes, I don't think the d+KP Fake Toe Slant requires an MC to cause a Trip, nor does the ff+K Dash Hammer Kick require an MC to cause a Stumble.

    I've removed the Trip note altogether. I think you've mistook the Trip to mean the knockdown effect, whereas I think VP used the Trip to note the hit animation from a non-knockdown sweep-like attack. I don't think there's anything special about Trips so I'm not going to note them on VFDC.

    Corrected the note on the Dash Hammer Kick though. It will Stumble on normal hit.

    Thanks again for the corrections!
     
  10. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    1. The React Round Kick needs a Guard Stagger note.
    2. The PPu+P Jab Double Straight, the df+PPP Lightning Straight, the KP "Kick, Back Knuckle," and the ff+K Dash Hammer Kick do NOT sober Shun as shown on the list.
    3. The b+PP Double Spin Knuckle and the df+P+G Northern Light Bulb sober Shun -1 DP.
    4. When Jacky does the df+P+G, both he and his opponent fall to the ground, but his opponent seems to get up first. Is this worthy of some kind of note?
    5. Myke said:

    The Step-in Iaigeri should be SK as well, since the only difference between the Step-in Sword and Iaigeri occur post-hit.

    I may be wrong on this, but I think I disagree with you on the reversibility of the Iaigeri. Since the Iaigeri is a "simultaneous-with-hit" event, how can it be reversed? Once a hit occurs, isn't it too late for a reversal? Also, the "plain" Step-in Sword Cancel is listed as being an MK reversible move. Aside from the fact that if it is reversible, it should be SK, I am not convinced it can be reversed either. In the experiments I've done, the cancelled kick I've obtained absolutely can't be; Pai just whiffs -- Jacky's leg doesn't "extend" far enough. Now this might be dependent on when the kick is cancelled, so I can't say with absolute certainty that this verifies it can't be reversed, but I was also under the impression that cancelling an attack prevents a move from being reversed. Once again, I have entered a state of confusion. Hopefully your understanding is a leg up on mine. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  11. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    1. The React Round Kick needs a Guard Stagger note.

    Updated.

    2. The PPu+P Jab Double Straight, the df+PPP Lightning Straight, the KP "Kick, Back Knuckle," and the ff+K Dash Hammer Kick do NOT sober Shun as shown on the list.

    Removed the Sober notes for the above, however, the f,f+K will Sober Shun if it's an Air Hit.

    3. The b+PP Double Spin Knuckle and the df+P+G Northern Light Bulb sober Shun -1 DP.

    Updated. BTW, how many Jacky's does it take to change a Northern Light Bulb? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    4. When Jacky does the df+P+G, both he and his opponent fall to the ground, but his opponent seems to get up first. Is this worthy of some kind of note?

    IMO, no. Getting up is usually a function of struggling anyway.

    Re: Step-in Iaigeri

    It's so obvious now after you explained it. This move is based on the condition that it hit, so reversing it doesn't make sense. Also removed the MK reversable note from the Step-in Cancel.


    Also, updated the following as Special High (H*):

    - PPf+PP
    - f+PP
    - b+PP
    - b+PK
    - df+PPP
    - KPK
    - P+KK
    - d+K+GK
     
  12. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Removed the Sober notes for the above, however, the f,f+K will Sober Shun if it's an Air Hit.

    Really?! I never thought to test if air hits are affected differently with regards to sobering! Glad you discovered this! I need to find time to recheck some of the other attacks I've looked at previously with regards to air hits and sobering. This stuff gets complicated...

    Updated. BTW, how many Jacky's does it take to change a Northern Light Bulb?

    As many as can socket... /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Also, updated the following as Special High (H*):

    *sigh* I still wish I understood how to reliably test for this property in a general manner. Kind of hard to make corrections otherwise. I wonder if any of the other characters I've checked out have any additional need for H* corrections...
     
  13. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Really?! I never thought to test if air hits are affected differently with regards to sobering! Glad you discovered this!

    I can't take credit for discovering it because it's noted in the White Book /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Don't worry about going back and re-checking the ones you've done already, because with every Sober correction you've noted, I cross checked it in the White Book. Jacky's is the first that I've seen which ony Sobers on an air hit.

    Re: special high attacks

    Again, these are noted in the White Book. They're not noted as a hit level though, but rather a comment in the Notes column which effectively translates to "will hit against a low attack".

    So, don't worry about testing them all if you're still unsure about it. I'll update any special high information directly from the White Book.
     
  14. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    BTW, of some interest is the way cumulative effects of sobering can be affected by the timing of a combo. For instance, if Jacky's b+PP is done without pausing between the two Spin Knuckle attacks, only a -1 DP effect occurs. But if there is a slight pause between the two Spin Knuckles, each sobers separately.
     
  15. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    yes..that is quite true

    has always been this way.

    For example...beatknuckle backfist ..if timed properly..can take off two drink points...1 from each attack.

    However...I don't believe that should be in the move list...
    much more suited in a FAQ...which is why I've never brought it up on the board anyway.
     
  16. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    However...I don't believe that should be in the move list...
    much more suited in a FAQ...


    I agree with you wholeheartedly. Trouble is, what if a FAQ never gets written? Or the FAQ writer leaves it out too? That's why I do bring things like this up on the board. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  17. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Trouble is, what if a FAQ never gets written

    <hr></blockquote>

    All in due time, young Jedi /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  18. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    With one exception, I've completed to my satisfaction the testing of Jacky's ranged damage attacks. All of them have the damage increase with distance.

    The range for the b+Pd+K Spinning Low Spin Kick is 20~35.
    The following all have a range of 20~25: Pd+K Punch Low Spin Kick; df+(PK) Slant Low Spin Kick; KPd+K Combo Knuckle Low Spin Kick; P+KPd+K Beat & Knuckle Low Spin; (back turned) Pd+K Turn Knuckle Low Spin Kick; (back turned) d+(PK) Turn Slant Low Spin Kick.

    The one attack whose results I am not yet comfortable with is the K+Gd+K+G Spinning Kick Low Spin Kick. So far I've achieved an interim range of 20~23; this may yet end up being my final conclusion, but for now I will continue controlled experimenting in an attempt to achieve a 25. Yeah, I know -- for some this will seem an incredible waste of time. But it's precisely my nature to be precise. "De tail is de anal eyes." /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  19. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I believe Jacky's PPu+P Jab Double Straight needs to be updated to an H* special high attack.
     
  20. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    The PPu+P Jab Double Straight, the df+PPP Lightning Straight, the KP "Kick, Back Knuckle," and the f,f+K Dash Hammer Kick do NOT sober Shun as shown on the list.

    Removed the Sober notes for the above, however, the f,f+K will Sober Shun if it's an Air Hit

    <hr></blockquote>

    Myke, you must have hit some wrong buttons. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif The sober note for the PPu+P is still there, the KP has a note saying it sobers on an air hit, and the f,f+K still has its original sober note that doesn't reference air hits.
     

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