Judging VF4

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Guest, Jan 15, 2000.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What would you guys think of VF4 having a judge for 'bouts instead of the usual 2 out of three victories standard. Say certain techniques give you points; ie Shun's TPoD would get you 15 points to get you toward winning a round, but if you didn't know this move you could use a PPK combo for say 1 point. Each round would be won with say 100 points. The cool thing is you would have an ancient looking judge actually sitting in the background who could lead the proceedings. Maybe during the beginning of each round certain rules would be announced like "no pounce attacks", or "this is a no throw match"; of course you could do these, but they would penalize your points.
    This could affect strategy greatly in VF4. You would have to carefully choose moves, and fights would have to be more varied. It would also bring a tournament feel to the game. It would also bring a variation to the genre and would better distinguish it from games like Tekken and Dead or Alive. Such a format would also bring greater drama to things like a Sudden Death match, where of course you wouldn't have any points involved, but you revert back to the fight and die formula. I think this idea could be implemented pretty easily, and could possibly be flavored with apparent injury graphics or a fatigue system.
    What do you guys think? Not gonna happen?

    -FifthVenom
     
  2. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    I actually do not like this idea whatsoever, cause it makes it more like a karate tournament type of game, and not a street fight all out brawl which I find more interesting.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Shadowdean: What if it was an option in the DC version? That would probably be a good thing to do, don't you think?

    ImAShroom
     
  4. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Yeah....I definatly agree with you on that. making a tournament OPTION would really be kick ass...you would see the developement of 2 types of vf players! That would be a kick ass option...the more I think bout it, the more I like it as an option...mail that suggestion to SOJ.
     
  5. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    I always thought it would be cool to eliminate the life bar; it would force players to pay more attention to the fighting, and less to the ammount of green remaining in the gauge. Has the fact that fighting games have used this abstract thing as standard since Street Fighter (aside from Bushido Blade)struck anyone else as strange? I like the idea of the invisible point system.

    I'd also like to see machi players turn into chickens during the win pose, but...

    Does anyone know if there is a way to submit ideas to AM2?

    Spotlite
     
  6. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Well, I think machi is definatly a valid form of play...so I have no problem with it.
    As for the elimination of life bars, that is a very interesting concept. The reason I think we will never see it in virtua fighter is the fact that to many people in virtua fighter have their heads stuck in statistics such as frames, damage, etc.
    www.sega.com might have a place to submit...
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Having no life bars is an interesting concept.. but.. I think it would be better to keep them. If it got into points fights would get boring, because the way those fights usually work is you get a hit or 2 on the opponent and then you get your points, but that ends the round. It would be cool as an extra mode, something to do when you have no one to play against, or there could be special tournaments using this mode, etc.
     
  8. Vicks Biru

    Vicks Biru Well-Known Member

    Perhaps there could be a Custom Order mode. You choose the order your opponents come in, including stages they battle in. Weird, but may be revolutionary.

    <hr>
    <font color=orange>Better run home to Mama now! Ohohohohoho...</font color=orange>
    <hr>
     
  9. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    when I spoke about eliminating the life bar, I didn't mean changing it to a more Bushido Bl.-style "1 hit kill" system, but rather to keep the play essentially the same, and just have the bars be invisible. I think this would lead to more interesting play, and end some of the last minute pecking away which is really common.

    I also like the idea of not being able to KO opponents with weak attacks like PPP or low kicks; the fighting game Ikekuburo Sarah made "Goiken Muyou 2" had this, and it was pretty cool.

    spotlite
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    yeah, let's make the time limit invisible, too. oh! and arbitrary ring outs! then people would have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how they won or lost! and have NO IDEA AT ALL how to approach the opponent! just button mash and hope you win. gee, doesn't THAT sound like fun.
     
  11. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    I do like that idea of no knock outs from a light attack like a light leg kick....though, a jab to the head can easily knock out...ALa Muhammid Ali's fight
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If attacking with purpose (or playing machi style and capitalizing with reversals and counters) an invisible
    time meter and life bar would not matter. Most VF battles end in under 30 sec anyway...
     
  13. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    damn...anger....
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    yes, it would matter. it would matter very much.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    i first was going to write a really long reply, but decided to trim it down. usually when i write long, people tend not to reply to specific points i want... so this is just a couple of very specific question...

    1. so say someone hits you with a regular kick. in regular vf, you lose say 20 points. but it is reperesented in a bar. so the enemy bar lowers 20 points worht. in your idea, the kick is still worht 20 points, but instead of showing it in a bar, they would just have the attackers' number go up 20 points? this doesnt really change things much.. or maybe you mean something else.... if so how would it be? because this is just a cosmetic change for the worse.

    2. also. if you put too much emphasis on the difficulty of moves, id really hate that. that would stop me from playing vf COMPLETELTY.
    ie you said shuns 'tpod' should be worth 15 and the pppk should be worht 1 point [or whatever, even if it was worth 5]. i dont want the competition to just be be a bunch of kids or tekken players or killer instinct players [i know that sounds insulting, sorry] who memorise how to do the spod and keep trying it over and over because it gets so many points. youre rewarding ability to do moves solely over all other factors, whats cool imho about vf is that you dont have to focus on knowing how to do the most difficult moves [like spod] to be somewhat competetive.

    if there is a wide opening for a pppk, then id like to use it... instead of saying ... let me see if i can get out a really complicated move. in real fighting [im no martial artist, but] there are sometimes when even seemingly simple easy moves can do great damage.. it doesnt have to be the most fancy thing in the world. in vf you can just look for good openings and do simple moves and still win. like MCing with a knee... instead of just setting people up for spactacular moves. unrealistic. which makes vf more like real life.

    hrm.. maybe im not getting my point accross on that one.. lemme know

    3. having to subtract 86 from 24 in the middle of a face paced fight [im sure you all know how face paced vf is], just to know how far behind you are... welll thats just insane.

    "quick... whats 123 minus 62..".. :::DLC::: :::pOUNCE::: :::GET UP AND GUARD::: :::SPOD::: :::KO::: "...uh... 61..SHIT IVE LOST!!!!!"

    joe-t
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ikekuburo Sarah

    >I also like the idea of not being able to KO opponents >with weak attacks like PPP or low kicks; the fighting game >Ikekuburo Sarah made "Goiken Muyou 2" had this, and it was >pretty cool.

    i agree about low kicks... but isnt it kind of unrealistic to not be able to KO a weak opponent with ppp?... if you ppp someone with no energy left... what do you want to happen? they absorb it and hit you after your recovering from doing all the punches like a zombie?

    and can you PLEASE tell me all you know about how this Ikekuburo Sarah made his own game "Goiken Muyou 2". he is a renowned vf player right? did he get into the industry just by being good at vf or soemthing...?

    joet

    ps. if theres a timelimit, [and there must be if its in the arcade], then there must be a timer countdown, and if theres a timer countdown, then there WILL be last minute pecking.
     
  17. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    Re: Ikekuburo Sarah

    Okay, Joe T, I'll try to answer.

    1. I guess you could think of the points as being added or subtracted, either way. I guess what I'm looking for is a mental shift rather than a cosmetic one. Let's say that the opponent has very little energy left, and tries a move which has some recovery time, which you guard. Here is the "wide open" chance you spoke of. Looking at the life bar, you see he only has a tidbit of stamina left, and you can finish him off with a PP, you win, absolutely risk free (let's assume he doesn't have time to escape or guard the PP, no-reversal character). And that's fine with me.

    My idea is this: Same situation. No life bar. You know that you've already nailed him with, say, a good damage air combo and a throw. You've just guarded said attack. Now, not knowing exactly how much he's got left, you might go for a high damage attack or throw. In the case of the attack, it might come out a little slower, giving him a chance to escape or guard; or it might not (like Jacky's Kickflip). Same with the throw: he might escape it, he might not. It's this continuation on the guessing game that i'm interested in.

    With the life bar, I feel that it's easy for us to end up doing "just enough" in such a situation; whereas I feel it's more fun to keep the action going. Let's say that in that situation you did wolf's SSD (d/f,d/f,P+G), and just as wolf's about to pile drive him, you see him fall behind wolf. Now that's what I feel is exciting, and the tension is now increased between the players dramatically, and again, a situation is created where the action continues. This exact setup occurred last weekend between Ice 9 and UK Guy, and it was really cool. After they finished, Ice asked UK Guy how he knew which throw he was doing, then he said that wolf players always switch to .... you get the idea.

    Or ... PP. KO. No discussion, no suprises, not much fun. I don't even remember who won that match, but I remember that moment, when Kage dropped behind Wolf near the wall in Akira's stage. I guess I like a "high risk-high return" style of play, and I feel that without being able to see exactly how much you have left to do, you're apt to try to do a little more when you can. but it's just an idea, maybe it wouldn't work.

    BTW, I like the timer. I never suggested getting rid of it. It forces players to act quickly and be aggressive.

    2. When I say no KOs with weak attacks, I didn't mean that the difficulty or the command should have to do with it, just the damage. It kind of relates to what I was saying earlier about how to me, taking bigger chances makes the game more interesting. A move like the kick flip, or say Beat Knuckle isn't hard to do at all, but is risky and interesting.

    I just stepped away from the computer for a few hours and lost my train of thought , I hope I answered your questions. The game Ikekuburo Sarah made has two parts. the original "Goiken Muyou :Anarchy in the Nippon" was on the saturn, while the sequel was on the playstation. It features street punkish character design and the system is very similar to VF, as you might imagine. They're both really hard to find, espescially the sequel. I have no idea how he got into programming, but he started his own small company (i think) called "kiss", but I might be confused.

    spotlight

    Or
     
  18. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: Ikekuburo Sarah

    and can you PLEASE tell me all you know about how this Ikekuburo Sarah made his own game "Goiken Muyou 2". he is a renowned vf player right? did he get into the industry just by being good at vf or soemthing...?

    Ike-Sarah is 30 something years old, and he started programming almost 12 years ago. He's been with a few software companies, though minor ones, and made some games, including GP-Race for MSX and some Mah-jong game for Famicom.

    Clearly he did not move that high in the corporate ladder as he got axed many times from his jobs, either because of a brawl with his boss, or cutting work to play VF1.

    Goiken was just a small gig he ran with his VF friends. Popular comic artist Atsushi Kase designed the characters (he also loves playing VF), Ike-Sarah programmed the game, while a few ex-tetsujins "contributed" in some minor issues.

    Ike-Sarah used to write a column in Japanese Saturn Magazine, mentioning all those things above. And I used to translate them for Hardcore Gaming.

    I have no personal opinion about Goiken series, by the way, simply...because I'd rather play VF instead.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Ikekuburo Sarah

    thanks for the informative reply

    its nice that there is a game designer out there who appreciates vf enough to make a fighting game with a 'similar system' to vf. or one who can even play vf well. hes the only one i ever heard of besides designers of sega arcade games (obviously).

    >Ike-Sarah is 30 something years old, and he started programming almost 12 >years ago. He's been with a few software companies, though minor ones, and >made some games, including GP-Race for MSX and some Mah-jong game for >Famicom.

    ah so was a programmer first.. i cant think of one designer i know who didnt start of as a programmer (even suzuki did this, right?)... was hoping for another way in :)

    >Clearly he did not move that high in the corporate ladder as he got axed >many times from his jobs, either because of a brawl with his boss, or >cutting work to play VF1.

    Wow
    ive heard about how harcore the japanese are about vf. is it just because the game is so great or are they just hardcore in general? do they do this kind of stuff over tekken etc? or to the same extent? are there any games they hold in higher esteem than vf?

    >Goiken was just a small gig he ran with his VF friends. Popular comic artist >Atsushi Kase designed the characters (he also loves playing VF), Ike-Sarah >programmed the game, while a few ex-tetsujins "contributed" in some minor >issues.

    seems like a garage type company... i always thought game making was much more big biz than that... that a garage type company can even publish a game they made. the publishing feat is what im most impressed with. it cant be that 'straight forward' just programming it, getting together the art, etc (i know the developing side is very hard)... and then finding a company to publish? maybe japan is more open to this... i always thought, if it was this straight forward, why werent there many other 'amature' style vf (or other) games made?

    or maybe he had connections

    >Ike-Sarah used to write a column in Japanese Saturn Magazine, mentioning all >those things above. And I used to translate them for Hardcore Gaming.
    >I have no personal opinion about Goiken series, by the way, simply...because >I'd rather play VF instead.

    cool, i know that site. sometime soon ill try to download the whole site and find it (there are programs that do that)

    joet
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Ikekuburo Sarah

    >Okay, Joe T, I'll try to answer.
    >1. I guess you could think of the points >as being added or subtracted, either >way. I guess what I'm looking for is a >mental shift rather than a cosmetic one. >Let's say that the opponent has very little >energy left, and tries a move which has >some recovery time, which you guard. >Here is the "wide open" chance you >spoke of. Looking at the life bar, you see >he only has a tidbit of stamina left, and >you can finish him off with a PP, you >win, absolutely risk free (let's assume he >doesn't have time to escape or guard the >PP, no-reversal character). And that's >fine with me.

    me too.
    the two players dont have unlimited stamina, so inevitably a small attack can KO them if they have only a little stamina left.
    but i do agree that its not that exciting.
    the way i look at it in my mind / my philosphy on that is:
    you should be worried about *not* taking damage and if you get to a point where the opponent *can* finish you off with a little attack, you have already failed in your goal of not taking damage. i guess i look at it more from a training stand point.. if i look at it this way i dont really miss the continuation of the guessing game that much

    just sharing :)

    >My idea is this: Same situation. No life >bar. You know that you've already nailed >him with, say, a good damage air combo >and a throw. You've just guarded said >attack. Now, not knowing exactly how >much he's got left, you might go for a >high damage attack or throw. In the >case of the attack, it might come out a >little slower, giving him a chance to >escape or guard; or it might not (like >Jacky's Kickflip). Same with the throw: >he might escape it, he might not. It's this >continuation on the guessing game that >i'm interested in.

    yes i like this...
    continuation of the guessing game / keeping excitement high is good.

    i would still want some indicator of damage though. i would like this in vf4 if they also showed bruises etc on the characters. just to give a hint for novice players of how much damage was taken. not insanely accurate. good players wouldnt really need it because they would keep track of how much damage done "i did 1 kickflip and etc, so i thik he has half damage".

    #1. here is a problem with that... how would you ever know how much damage a move took off? how would you know the SPOD is stronger than the kick flip? maybe little numbers poping out showing the damage done?

    but i think this complicates the game a tad now. maybe players will just evolve to guessing how much damage is left and still try to pick off little bits at the end. good players would if they really wanted to win.
    so that would bascially negate the whole plan, right? (point #2) ... it would for advanced players, and would just confuse novices.
    just after playing so many games you could get a feel of when they would be low on energy, even if there were no visual cues at all [no bruises, no numbers showing damage taken.] and then if you want to you can still peck away at their health to finish them off, armed with this knowledge, if you wanted to.

    #3, in the US atleast, Vf is already the wierdo of fighting games... this might alienate players even more

    #4. and in japan i suspect, they value the competition and tournamenty style play. this kind of vaugness isnt good for tournament play i dont think. compared to other games. too 'fuzzy'

    however i really do like the idea. and would want to see it somewhere. now that we know we like it, how feasable do you think this is to implement? do you think this would really be a good idea to add to VF or any other fighting game really? maybe more suited to a console fighter? i dont know...

    im just trying to imagine, seeing a fighter in an arcade without a health bar may actually scare off people? just too risky? plus a complicated game like vf that already scares off people.

    >With the life bar, I feel that it's easy for >us to end up doing "just enough" in such >a situation; whereas I feel it's more fun >to keep the action going. Let's say that >in that situation you did wolf's SSD >(d/f,d/f,P+G), and just as wolf's about to >pile drive him, you see him fall behind >wolf. Now that's what I feel is exciting, >and the tension is now increased >between the players dramatically, and >again, a situation is created where the >action continues. This exact setup >occurred last weekend between Ice 9 >and UK Guy, and it was really cool. After >they finished, Ice asked UK Guy how he >knew which throw he was doing, then he >said that wolf players always switch to >.... you get the idea.

    >Or ... PP. KO. No discussion, no >suprises, not much fun. I don't even >remember who won that match, but I >remember that moment, when Kage >dropped behind Wolf near the wall in >Akira's stage. I guess I like a "high risk->high return" style of play, and I feel that >without being able to see exactly how >much you have left to do, you're apt to >try to do a little more when you can. but >it's just an idea, maybe it wouldn't work.

    >BTW, I like the timer. I never suggested >getting rid of it. It forces players to act >quickly and be aggressive.

    >2. When I say no KOs with weak >attacks, I didn't mean that the difficulty >or the command should have to do with >it, just the damage.
    >It kind of relates to >what I was saying earlier about how to >me, taking bigger chances makes the >game more interesting. A move like the >kick flip, or say Beat Knuckle isn't hard >to do at all, but is risky and interesting.

    i agree with you on the above.

    i think i was commenting to another post when i was saying things about command difficulty. someone said something about getting 15 points for a spod and only 1 point for a ppp. i thought that would make people focus on only doing high point moves which, for me would be lame. it would make the ability to do complicated moves too important, id rather place strategy higher than move input ability. if a guy didnt know how to do a spod [most people] hed be under too much disadvange, i dont like those types of games.

    >I just stepped away from the computer >for a few hours and lost my train of >thought , I hope I answered your >questions. The game Ikekuburo Sarah >made has two parts. the original "Goiken >Muyou :Anarchy in the Nippon" was on >the saturn, while the sequel was on the >playstation. It features street punkish >character design and the system is very >similar to VF, as you might imagine. >They're both really hard to find, >espescially the sequel. I have no idea >how he got into programming, but he >started his own small company (i think) >called "kiss", but I might be confused.
    >spotlight

    (i decided to combine my reply to you with sta783
    so that i wouldnt repeat myself)

    thanks for the info,
    joet
     

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