Jumping Attacks: Why and When you cannot Evade them

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by G0d3L, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. G0d3L

    G0d3L Well-Known Member

    I decided to make this post after Rodnutz asked when's Akira's [9][G][K] acts as pseudo full circular.

    In the discussion as an explanation was linked a page from Neko Dojo - section 7-3.

    The case in question is the one with Wolf and El Blaze, where Blaze after a blocked [8][P][+][K] (-9) does [P] or [2]/[8].

    Neko is saying that a +9 Wolf can beat both El Blaze's options ([P] or [2]/[8]) by doing [9][G][K] because you cannot evade immediately a jumping attack.

    The concept is correct but the numbers and the particular examples are wrong:

    After a blocked [8][P][+][K] El Blaze CAN succesfull evade Wolf's [9][G][K]. (most probably he did [9][G][K] a little too slow)

    Later on in diagram 6-7 he explains the inability to evade the initial frames of a jumping attack because they have 6 frames of BLANK TIME.

    Those are not blank frames but instead they are PRE-JUMP FRAMES + AIRBORNE FRAME/S PRE STARTUP MOVE.

    For everybody except Taka every jumping attack has 6 frames (pre-jump + airborne) where the attack has not started yet.

    So the first 6 frames are pure movement and then you cannot succesfully evade during that window.

    Taka is a bit different having 8 frames.


    Now let's take a look in depth at this 6 frames window.

    For Wolf the first 5 frames are pre-jump frames.

    It means that during these frames he will initiate his jumping animation but he will be still be on the ground.

    On the 6th frame he is finally airborne.

    On the 7th frame the jumping attack (done as fast as possible) will commence


    To verify all this you can do as follow.

    Wolf against Kage.

    Register Kade doing a [6][P] on hit and immediately after [P].

    With Wolf while crouching take the hit of [6][P] (-6) and then try to jump.

    If done correctly Wolf will be hit on the ground.

    Kage's [P] is 11 frames and so at the 5th frame (11-6) of the jump Wolf is still on the ground.



    Now we do almost the same thing swapping in [P] in place of the [6][P]

    With wolf you take the hit of [P] (-5) and then you try to jump.

    This time around Wolf will be hit in the air, meaning that on the 6th frame (11-5) of his jump animation he will be finally airborne.


    Now will do something similar but we'll try to grab Wolf during his pre-jump frames.

    Register Kade doing a [P] on hit and immediately after [P][+][G].

    With Wolf while crouching take the hit of [P] (-5) and then try to jump.

    If done correctly Wolf will be grabbed while still on the ground.


    Now will do something similar but we'll try to grab Wolf during his pre-jump frames.

    Register Kade doing a [2][P] on hit and immediately after [P][+][G].

    With Wolf while crouching take the hit of [2][P] (-4) and then try to jump.

    If done correctly the throw will whiff while Wolf will be in the air.


    As a double check will repeat these two example except that this time around instead of just jumping with Wolf you will need to enter his jumping attack [9][G][K].

    In the first case (being hit crouching by [6][P]) entering [9][G][K] will result in a NORMAL HIT while still on the ground.

    In the second case (being hit standing by [P]) entering [9][G][K] will result in a NORMAL HIT while be in the air.


    So in Wolf's case up to the 5th frame of his jumping attacks he is still on the ground and only during the 6th frame he becomes airborne but still the jumping attack hasn't started yet.


    Now let's verify when the jumping attacks (done as fast as possible) will actually start.

    Pick up Wolf vs Wolf.

    Register Wolf doing 66 (for timing purpose only) [6][P] and then immediately [9][G][K].

    With player 1 Wolf take [6][P] on CH (-6) and then input [2]/[8].

    If done correctly the evade will fail because it will be execute at 6th frame of jumping attack thus while not yet in the attack' startup.

    Now will do the same example swapping a [2][P] for the [6][P].

    Take [2][P] on CH (+7) and then input [2]/[8].

    If done correctly the evade will be succesfull because it will be execute at the 7th frame of jumping attack thus while in the very first frame of the attack' startup (so there's actually something to evade).


    DIFFERENCES IN PRE-JUMP FRAMES

    Now there's something interesting: except Taka (7 frames of pre-jump, 1 frame airborne without possibility to start an attack, jumping attack starting at 9th frame) all others characters can be divide in two groups:

    - Wolf, Jean, Jeffry

    - All the rest of the cast

    While Wolf, Jean and Jeffry have 5 frames of pre-jump (still on the ground) and 1 frame airborne without possibility to start an attack (the 6th frame) all other characters (except Taka) have 4 frames of pre-jump (still on the ground) and 2 frame airborne without possibility to start an attack (the 5th and 6th frame).

    The only explanation I could give is that Wolf, Jean and Jeffry are the three ones with really bigger body compared to all the rest (except Taka obv) and so they have this small nuance (game engine??, developers' choice??)


    PSEUDO FULL CIRCULAR JUMPING ATTACKS

    Now finally we can take a look at when a jumping attack is pseudo full circular.

    The infamous Akira's [9][K] is 25 frames will start its execution at the 7th frame as proved before.

    An EFDG takes at best 14 frames while an ECDG takes 17 frames.

    So the best case for Akira is to enter [9][K] while at +6 (so if the opponent inputted a buffered evade it will fail) and see if the opponent has enough frames to EFDG/ECDG in time

    For an EFDG we have 25-6-14=5 which is >0 meaning that the opponent has enough time to guard.

    For an ECDG we have 25-6-17=2 which is >0 meaning that the opponent has enough time to guard.

    If Akira's [9][K] is inputted at +7 or more then it will succesfully evade.


    This means that when we got hit by it it's only our fault!



    A different case is Wolf's [9][G][K].

    If buffered and done as fast as possbile it's 19 frames.

    Same scenario as before with Wolf at +6.

    For an EFDG we have 19-6-14=-1 which is <0 meaning that the opponent has not enough time to guard (from a -5 situation is guardable tho).

    For an ECDG we have 19-6-17=-4 which is <0 meaning that the opponent has not enough time to guard (from a -2 situation is guardable tho)
    .



    This way you can see if any jumping attacks under certain situations are pseudo full circular.

    Have fun!
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
    Modelah, MakiLeSushi, erdraug and 5 others like this.
  2. oneida

    oneida Long Arm of the Lau Staff Member Silver Supporter Media Manager

    PSN:
    oneida_vf
    XBL:
    oneida1
    thanks for the write up! will dig in tonight
     
  3. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    To be exact, you cannot successfully evade. Trying to evade during mere jump you will get a failed evade and will get hit by the attack that comes out. Being airborne or not btw shouldn't matter, you can only successfully evade an attack. That is: tap up or down after an attack has been initiated.

    Hit by it. Slight typo there.
     
  4. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    FUCK THIS SYSTEM
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    Correct this is how evades work. Thanks for clearing this up Oneida!. Everyone this isn't Tekken!
     
  5. G0d3L

    G0d3L Well-Known Member

    Fixed it.
    Thanks.

    Fixed it.
    Thanks.
    I definitely meant to write it this way too but evidently while writing I made this unwanted omission.

    Infact in the examples that I wrote you can read about failed evades and EFDG/ECDG.




    Sorry but I don't get your point here.

    I clearly said the same thing in my post.

    On top of that this is common knowledge so it's not that I'm trying to discover the hot water.


    To be precise this is not always true.

    In several cases you are able to guard the ascending jumping attack even not canceling the failed evade.

    And you can definitely guard all descending jumping attacks even not canceling the failed evade.

    If you don't guard at all you'll defenitely be hit by all jumping attacks after a failed evade, but that's only the case if you are a scrub like @kingo <3




    Never said that being or not airborne it matters for the successfully evade.

    As I clearly wrote

    I just did a frame by frame analysis of something that before was known as "blank frames" making them some sort of esoteric object.

    Finding that every jumping attack has pre-jump frames can help in taking a decision in certain situations.


    For example take Lei vs Shun.

    Shun hits Lei with [4][P] on CH (+6)

    Lei does want to do a low crush move trying to steal the turn but at -6 [9][K]'s low crush propertie doesn't kick in time to beat Shun [1][K][K]. (mashing [P] or [2][P] doesn't work either because there aren't enough frames)

    So to low crush [1][K][K] and beats a throw attempt Lei decides to use [9][G][K].

    It is fast enough to go over the first [1][K] and beat the second [K].

    ....Too bad Lei has being grabbed by Shun!

    "WTF?!?!?!?"

    "I have mashed [9][G][K]!! Fucking lag!!!":mad::mad::mad:

    If only the Lei player have known about the pre-jump frames......:whistle:



    On top of that I gave a proof of the quantity of these "blank frames".
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
    -nero- likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice