Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side Topic)

Hey maybe sega could license ggpo's netcode...?

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

GGPO would be way better than vf as it is. Ive played people in japan with no promblem, no rollbacks. The rollbacks are really only noticiable when your computer cant keep up with them, and that really wouldnt be the case with a ps3 or 360.


double post ftw!

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

Apples to oranges. Input times and response in 2D and 3D fighters is not similar at all and requires much different coding. Even SFIV, which is polygonal, is very different from VF in terms of input (far fewer variables and the game isn't running at true 60 FPS).

 

i hate the notion that online wins don't matter. and i hate the assumption of people who play offline that they are at such a disadvantage. for all i know, maybe i'm ten times better offline. maybe all these close matches would be mine. honestly, lag is and will always be a SCAPEGOAT, pure and simple. and to anyone reading this, i do it- u do it- the guy not reading this does it: when u lose and it feels cheesy it feels like it was lag and there is never anyway to disprove this, so the question will ALWAYS be there. it's human nature. it always kinda sucks knowing that MAYBE the game isn't playing as intended. honestly, i've only played my bro offline smb/wasted, but it wasn't so different. truth is, while being kicked in the head by a superior player or inferior player outplaying u, ur guy/girl just does not respond as u want him too. online, offline, in real life, whatever. but it is nice to know offline that it's completely legit "bullshit". i'm not saying anything bad about people thinking lag is hamstringing them, but thinking lag is affecting u, prob doesn't effect u as much as worrying about the lag effecting u. Or me. as the case may be.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

I can see how lag doesnt matter much for beginner or some intermediate players but when a player understands how and why frames work, its a serious crutch. Most other fighting games arent frame based and quite a few 3d fighters are you do a move I do a move, you do a move I do a move. Thats not VF at a high level.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

If you ever have the opportunity to play in a few high level offline tournaments, or play several high level players for any extended time, you will change your position on lag as it relates to effecting game play. Right now you don't have a point of reference because you only played your brother offline.

So before you get to intellectually invested in the notion that lag doesn't matter, wait until you have some serious offline experience under your belt /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

This clears it up for me. I hope it does for everybody else.
If this interview isn't part of the VF wikipedia, it should be.
Its thant important. Should be required reading /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Thanx for putting the link here...

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

Santa Claus ain't real.
Thread/

 

This isn't really financially viable, if you talk to a lot of people. Sure, they could license the netcode, but then that would mean the people working at Sega on netcode are going to be twiddling their thumbs doing nothing, wasting more of Sega's money.

On top of that, licensing software is very expensive compared to making it in-house, and since Sega already has programmers to create netcode in their company, it's best for them to get those guys to do it rather than license it.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

the first lag x frame related issue that actually affected me was Kage's 6P+G Throw, 8K/9K should be the only move that connects, but more then 5 times it got blocked! LAGGGGGGG

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

I can't remember the last time I saw a rollback. Then again I play on 2DF way more than GGPO these days.

AFAIK how the game is rendered doesn't have anything to do with the method of how inputs are sent across the network. It ain't new. ZSNES has used the same type of system for who knows how many years, and it's open source. Even FPS games have 'unlagged' netcode, which works in a similar way. What's funny is, a lot of games like that (Gears of War, for example) don't use unlagged netcode. Now, Epic surely spent a huge sum of money on that game's development, so why does it have host advantage? The answer is the same for why console fighters have delay-style netcode, which is most people don't give a shit.

Hopefully Capcom's netcode will turn people onto it and make them more demanding when it comes to netcode.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

('unlagged'... )

"Unfortunately, we are limited by physics: data can only travel so fast over phone lines. We're focusing our resources on trying to to hide lag - so we're thinking about things like predictive inputs, where the game predicts what you are going to do ahead of time and pre-loads animations, that sort of thing. The key is to soften the blow of the lag rather than eliminate it, because that's not possible."

- Yoshinori Ono, producer
in Edge magazine (august 2008 issue) about SF4 and online play

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

I'd like to point out another flagrant way lag affects gameplay.

I like to fully charge bone crush middle and sometimes the opponent doesn't get staggered on block. Since i'm not lifting my thumb from the button and this happens only online I can only assume this happens due to lag, the opponent's machine having not registered the move as a fully charged one for a couple of frames.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

Both sides have many legit arguments and it really does come down to a matter of preference.

It's factual that some frames <s>may</s> will get lost even with a good connection.

It's also factual that 99% of people wouldn't notice, given a good connection. Not only would you have to be at that level of play, but the hiccup would have to coincide with when you absolutely need that frame. (such as when you crouch dash fuzzy versus regular fuzzy, and have guessed correctly at that)

You can spot right away when lag is consistent or bad, or both. When that happens, take the outcome with a grain of salt; there's no money on the line. Over thousands of games, reality plays itself out and your ratio/rank will be appropriate.

One point that people seem to overlook here: The top ranked XBL players would be just as top-ranked given the same pool of people in person. Masared would kick your ass the same way, as would happyfriend, konjou, flash, denkai, etc. I'd be the same mediocre player I am now, occasionally passing master, 56% win ratio, snagging the occasional legit win against the higher guys.

I've been screwed by lag and have screwed people due to lag, most likely, but again, reality has played itself out well and I am where I belong on XBL, and so is everyone else with enough matches under their belts.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

I recall hearing him saying something like that in his interview a few days ago I believe. I couldn't agree more.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

I don't like the idea of predictive inputs. Obviously there is a limit to the speed of the data. That statement was dumbed down for the general public. Nothing in the near future will solve the problem other than slowing down the game clock to "meet the internet half way" so to speak. I hate to say it but maybe 30fps would make a better online VF6... The depth can still be there; it would just have to be modified.

Flash was once showing me the difference between fuzzy and crouch-dash fuzzy, via XBL. It worked properly 9 out of 10 times, and that's a 1 frame difference between the two. Internet connections are getting better, and hopefully Sega is getting smarter. The only real solution is cutting the fps or keeping it exactly as-is. Animation is secondary to crediting you with inputting something by frame 6 and not frame 7.

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

I couldn't agree more which is sad considering how many games I've played /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

Why not just get the GGPO engine and be done with it?

 

Re: Justifying Online VF ( Ver.C Tier List Side To

Because?