Kage, VF5R Version B Impressions

Hey guys,

Just got back from my Tokyo trip and thought I'd share my impressions on VF5R here.

A few things to note:

- I haven't played VF in AGES...the last prolonged versus session might have been since WCG Singapore, and even before that I haven't played for a while. So I'm really, really rusty.

- This was my first time playing VF5R. I watched a few videos when the update was first announced, but really, I know nothing about VF5R. I haven't been keeping up with the forums and I haven't watched videos, though I did browse the couple days before I left. So if some of the stuff I share here seems basic...that's why. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

- If I make comparisons, e.g. "This move is faster now," it is in reference to VF5R Version B and VF5. Since I've never played Version A I'll pretend it doesn't exist.

I was in Tokyo only for the weekend and was traveling with some friends and my GF, so I didn't really get the chance to play much. In all, I played probably ~70 matches with a 60% win rate with Kage. I only managed to reach 3rd dan as it wasn't so easy finding lower dan opponents. I tried Goh and Lau once.

I played only in Club Sega in Shinjuku and Akihabara. Those places as always are VF heaven. Even in the afternoon you usually wouldn't have a problem getting human opponents, and it was packed at 7 pm (the latest I had stayed). The machines were a mix of the high def, widescreen units (GORGEOUS) and the standard def ones. Usually the higher ranked players would play the HD machines while the lower ranked players struggled through the SD machines.

Looking back, I wish I spent more time in Akihabara as that arcade had more lower ranked opponents, but unfortunately my hotel was in Shinjuku. As I usually played during the afternoons, unfortunately I didn't get to meet any of the household names (Chibita, Mukki, etc.) but I did try to play opponents with silver ranks and ridiculous winning percentages (and always lost, LOL).

I don't know if I played on test machines, but it sure looked as though Version B has been officially released in Shinjuku and Akihabara. Large loud signs of "Version B" were pasted on the machines, and there were a LOT of those machines. If they were test units I would have expected may be 2 or 3 but Akihabara had at least a dozen.

Overall, my thoughts are that VF5Rb looks really, really nice. The animation tweaks, new moves, and Jean/Taka definitely make it feel different to VF5. I would say the leap is more VF4 to Evo than Evo to FT.

Some system and misc stuff...

- The new OM was hard to get used to. I kept OMP or OMK expecting an attack only to get punished for doing nothing. Argh!

- OM can still be used effectively however. I noticed that when I OMed, I often ended up to the opponents' side. I.e., the position you get after say, you hit the opponent with Jeffry's K+G. This could be a nice way to mix up your attack flow chart. E.g. OM -> P (side guard or hit) -> throw / big attack. With Kage, doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif was particularly effective as most opponents fail to block the second attack from a side guarding position. It might even be guaranteed, I'm not sure.

- However, at times after an OM I remain facing the opponent or worse getting hit mid-animation, so if there are rules as to how you are supposed to use it I certainly haven't discovered them.

- You could tell players were taking advantage of the guard > direction throw escape technique I read about in the VF5 movies thread. The guy would just be standing there; I'd dash in to throw and he would magically escape my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif throw. Better to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif throws in that case I think.

- It might just be me, but I felt that the lower ranked players that I fought against this trip are much better than in years past. Before, a 2nd dan opponent pretty much meant he/she was a scrub; i.e. you didn't really have to play defense to win. But I only played against one opponent who could be counted as a scrub (and he didn't play me again)...everyone else seemed to know how to play. 2nd dans were doing throw escapes, max damage combos, complex guessing games... This to me is a sure sign that the game is in trouble. The threshold to just being competitive is simply too high these days. Where are all the casual players? Young kids getting into the game who obviously don't have the experience to be good yet? That said, perhaps my experience was biased by the fact that I only played in Shinjuku and Akhibara.

- One weird thing is that hopping is now simply holding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and tapping /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif. This took some getting used to...my Kage kept doing flipkicks every time I wanted to hop away!

- Wall damage is seriously holy crap now. Getting pounded against the wall can and will change the tide of the match, but I suppose this is fair as opposed to an open stage where you could've gotten an instant KO in a RO. Nevertheless in VF5 you didn't have to fear walls so much...in VF5Rb hell yes you have to worry. Fortunately all characters seem capable of inflicting major damage with walls.

- Jean was a major pain in the ass to deal with. He is played like the Jacky of old...i.e., 4 basic moves that you use over and over and over again complemented by some cool looking situation stuff you may optionally use for variety. But man, those 4 basic moves are annoying to deal with - especially that spinning elbow knee attack that he has. The range, speed and recovery are sick.

- I hate playing against Taka. None of my combos work.

- Shun and Sarah are super annoying if you don't know what to do. Is it just me or is Sarah awesome in R? And I kept losing to scrubby Shuns, argh.

- Goh looks so cool now...AM2 really invested in this character, and finally it's paying off. I saw several very good Goh players this weekend. That knee is deadly.

- Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can no longer combo; it automatically knocks down.

- Wolf is a beast. Sunday must've been some kind of Wolf gang day because four or five very high ranking Wolf players came to Akihabara together to play.

And now, Kage!

He's definitely changed a lot compared to VF5. The way he's played has changed. Kage in VF3 was a defensive, throw-based character with a few good attacks. In VF4 and VF5, his attacks improved greatly while his throw game got weakened, but the result was a top tier character. In VF5R, he is now just an average throw character with average attacks. In fact, he is downright ordinary in all aspects: throw, long range attacks, mid range attacks, quick attacks, high damage combos, stances... The one area he is most improved him in is poking. Kage is now a decent poking character, which I do feel is important given how strong fuzzy guarding has become in VF5.

Kage doesn't have any particular strengths, but he's decent in several areas. Overall, a more well rounded character who now needs some skill to win with. I think they've improved him enough that he's likely mid-tier (or lower-mid tier) in VF5Rb. It's not that he's a bad character as much as everyone else seems so beefed up. But he remains a quick, confusing, fast hitting and fast recovering character and I dreaded ranked matches against him.

Kage does, however, still have one major flaw, and that is he cannot really punish an opponent for simply crouching and guarding. The highest damage he can do is a normal DPK. Against better opponents, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is way too slow and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is always teched.

Run down on some moves...

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
This doesn't look like a great move on paper, but it works amazingly well in a real match. The first attack has very good range and fast; the second attack is low and safe. I'm guessing Kage is at a disadvantage on normal hit but that seems fair. The second hit can be slightly delayed for a minor guessing game.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
One of my favorite moves in VF5Rb. The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can be delayed and hit checked, making /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif an excellent flow chart starter. It's fast, half-circular, and now inflicts decent damage. It's also an excellent punisher. The second attack is at least heavyweight /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif counterable but that seems more than fair.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
Used primarily for punishing failed evades and combos. On normal hit, a dash in throw seems guaranteed and a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is definitely guaranteed. On MC you can tack on another /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. I presume you can also do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif also works depending on distance. If you hit the opponent from the side with this, even on normal hit you can tack on another /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. You'll get this opportunity most often after a side turned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
I liked using this move probably more than I should. It's a bit slow but very safe as it pushes the opponent away on block. I'm guessing it's also half-circular. On hit, the opponent is side turned at which point you can go for a throw vs. sidekick guessing game. Sadly, it might be possible to do an ETEG from a side turned situation which means Kage doesn't have true nitaku - this is where I really miss his catch throw. Regardless I liked using this move.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
Floats on normal hit now; most standard combos apply.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
Another move that doesn't seem that useful on paper but is actually very good in real matches. It feels like every move can be hit checked, and the last attack leaves Kage safe as it pushes the opponent away. So even though the first two attacks are high, unless the opponent is already blocking low, usually Kage is safe with using this move. The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is also half-circular which is a big bonus (Kage has a lot half-circular moves). For some added variety you can also go into SH after the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
Key addition!! It's indispensable in combos (TFT, wall and crumple) but I also use it a lot in my attack flow. I basically use it like Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. It takes off a ton of damage with a guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and is safe. It also has decent range; the only downside is that it is slow to execute.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
This move is FINALLY useful again! It seems like a full circular though I can't be sure, but you can use this move the way you can with any other character's sweep. It's slow and highly unsafe but Kage ducks under high attacks and presumably does a low full circular. A nice addition to his mix up game, and he can do more mind tricks by canceling it and going to his BT game. This definitely eases some of the sting that comes with removing Kage's catch throw.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
Sadly, MC hit -> 0-frame throw no longer works. Oh well, still a decent move.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
Nerfed...slow and low reward now. Can still be used situationally but primarily if you think the opponent is coming with a high attack.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
The float on MC is higher so you can do higher damage combos. E.g. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> DP on at least up to Lion.

Shippujin
Dramatically weakened compared to VF5. Where do I start?? Sweeps are now only half-circular; damage potential off of SH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif seems weakened; the new addition, SH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is interesting but hardly mind blowing; worse of all, no catch throw. Yikes. The top Kages I saw almost never used Shippujin.

SH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
This is the only move that seems improved from SH. The standard combo now seems to be SH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

Jumonji
Seemingly, to compensate for a weakened SH, JM stance is now better (yaaay!). JM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif will crumple on mC, which means you can use JM again for okizeme and as an anti-LP attack. JM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can also go into SH. I also read somewhere here that JM reversal now also reverses knees, which is big. Unfortunately, every JM attack now automatically exits stance...I guess this is not a big loss, but it was hard for me to adjust to.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
Kage's best throw now. Sadly, it took me a full day to realize this but the best standard combo is TFT -> knee -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. I also saw some people go for a DP combo after knee which presumably leads to better damage.

Ring Out Potential
I know I've said before that the change to TFT going forward could increase Kage's RO potential, and that still could be true, but in practice I've found that it's made it worse. Kage is now better at pushing opponents forward in VF5Rb (not just TFT but also his moves in general), but I've realized the opponents I've been able to push around aren't generally the opponents I lose to. It's when the opponent is really good and pushing ME around that I wish I had that old TFT to encourage them to back off!

Combos
Some standard ones (though unfortunately I don't know which is the highest damage, though I take a guess here from lowest to highest):
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> DP
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

Wall Damage
Kage probably has the lousiest wall game, but he does have at least one good option: wall hit (e.g. with sidekick) -> heelkick -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> knee -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif for some decent damage.

Against the wall with TFT you can also do TFT -> wall hit -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

 

Thanks for the report Ice-9.

It's good to see that they made K+G from JMJ stance useful again.

In Shippujin stance, i think the Kage Yaiba (DPC) is now guaranteed after 6P. I saw it in a couple of videos too, so it isn't too bad.

What i'm excited about is his powerups with the poking and countering in general.

Throw damage may have been weakened for the most part. But I think making a forward direction his strongest balances it out since you have to worry about more directions with him.

 

I wish I was better at DPC so I could test it out, but I think it might be possible to do a LP -> DPC after every stomach crumple, so in that respect Kage's damage potential is up across the board.

However even the top Kages usually opted for a simple LP -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or LP -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

 

The combo is quite difficult to complete, because you can't waste frames at all. I assume it's similar to vanilla VF5 when Kage gets the crumple from JMJ K+G. You pretty much have to assume your gonna get the crumple and do the Kage Yaiba (DPC) immediately.

It's good to know that even the top players have trouble with this.

 

ice 9, you don't really say how /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is different from before... all those things you say are exactly how they are in vanilla 5. Does it recover low now? It's been noted that it seems a bit faster... can you vouch for this?

Also I saw how you mentioned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, is that move high or mid? I vaguely remember the animation but I can't be sure. If it is mid, then would that would make it a pretty good option against crouching-guarding opponents? Or is there not much advantage?

I must admit that I'm hyped about the changes. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, JM tweaks, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif if it is what i think it is... all cool. Thanks for taking the time to write all this up, really appreciated

 

Thanks for the write-up.

Just wondering, do you know if /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif still scales based on distance? Meaning it can still do pretty good damage from range on MC?

Also, did they remove his old /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif? I don't see mention of it anywhere, though I also don't see it mentioned as removed.

Lastly, is JM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif still only a crumple on sabaki? I figure they didn't change that and only /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is dramatically sped up compared to his old /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. It's about the speed of...Eileen's sweep perhaps. So it's fast enough to be usable, but not as fast as Lion's sweep. Kage still recovers low and the recovery is still bad. Unfortunately I don't know about if it scales on damage.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hits mid. The animation is similar to the last /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in SH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. On normal hit it leaves the opponent side turned, so it can be worth going for. But it's a slow attack (20 frames?) and the range is only so-so.

His old /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is gone AFAIK.

I'm not sure if JM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif crumples on anything other than sabaki, but I don't think it does on normal hit.

 

I stated that Kage can't do anything against opponents who simply crouch and guard -- that's actually incorrect.

He can /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif which leads to a combo on normal hit. He can probably inflict a good ~40 points damage that way, which while isn't fantastic is good enough.