Kage's Version C Command List Errata

Discussion in 'General' started by Deniz, Apr 8, 2002.

  1. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    In moving along with checking for errata on the Version C Command Lists, I have started checking Kage's. One thing I immediately noticed is a missing move: his roll into a catapult kick. This requires one or more preceding rolls followed by b>f+P+K+G. Curiously, as I mentioned in another thread, it is also missing from the PS2 training mode move command "list," but it is definitely in VF4.

    More to come (probably) after a more thorough checking of the VFDC list.
     
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    I'm not sure if I should be more upset that this move was omitted from the Red, Black and Blue Books or the fact that I didn't notice it was missing! /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Anyhow, it's in the White Book, and I've updated the Command List. Well spotted!
     
  3. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I have just begun checking the reversal levels for Kage's Version C moves. I started with his hop attacks, since reversal data for these types of attacks seems the most prone to error, and sure enough, I think there are some corrections needed.

    The reversal level for his Hopping Punch is given as MP, when it actually is LP. Even Sarah's [Flamingo Stance]P+K Sabaki works on it. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Despite what the list says, I don't think either his Van-Halen Kick or his Hop Kick (mid) can be reversed. I have not been able to reverse them. As always, there is the possibility it is just my skill that is lacking.

    The reversal levels given on the VFDC list for the Hopping Chop and Landing Sweep are correct. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  4. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    The reversal level for his Hopping Punch is given as MP, when it actually is LP. Even Sarah's [Flamingo Stance]P+K Sabaki works on it.

    Huzzah! That's news to me. Is this hopping punch a true low attack or special low?

    Yoiks! Myke has changed the movelist format (again!)... one thing that I'd like to see different is to have the main VFDC navigation bar remain available at the top with the home/versus city/media/etc. and main index/search/my home/etc. links. Hmm, maybe it's OK as is. Without the main logo and nav bar it will print out on less paper. <waffle-waffle>
     
  5. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    1. The damage for the PK Punch Kick should be changed from 10 to 20.
    2. The damage numbers for the two Dragon Punch, Landing Heel Drop entries (including the one listed under Rolling Attacks) need to be corrected from 20 to 16.
    3. The damage for the b+PK Helix, Heel Kick should be amended from 16 to 25.
    4. The damage for the df+P Body Blow needs to be changed from 15 to 16. [Note to Yupa: I think the VP list missed this move entirely].
    5. There should be a note for the charged version of the Handspring Kick saying it leaves Kage backturned.
    6. The b,f+K Heavy Circular Kick hits high, not midlevel, and it needs a note saying Kage is left backturned.
    7. The damage for the Front Revolution Kick is not 35; it's 33 (I think it's 25 & 8 for the two attacks, but I need to check it again more closely).
    8. The damage for a db+P+K Mid Punch Reversal is listed as 30; it should be 40.
    9. The damage for the P+K+G Mid Kick Reversal in Jumonji Stance is given as 30; it should be listed as 40.
    10. The damage numbers for two of his Ground Attacks need to be switched: The Jumping Head Smash is shown as 30 damage, but it should be 25; and the Jumping Knee Smash is shown as 25 damage, but it should be 30.
    11. In the Back Turned Attacks section, the u+K Sky Knee needs a note saying it leaves Kage backturned.
    12. In that same section: The ub+K Backflip Kick must be done immediately after Kage turns around, or after a preceding ub+K back turned attack (in either case, it can be buffered into the previous move). This is not noted.
     
  6. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    6. The b,f+K Heavy Circular Kick hits high, not midlevel, and it needs a note saying Kage is left backturned.

    More precisely, this move is special high, meaning it hits high, but will also interrupt certain low moves (e.g. low punch) and can also hit opponents that are in the recovery phase after a low attack.

    Other moves that are special high include Lau's f+K+G, Lion's dodge attack, Vanessa's MT f+P+K etc.


    8. The damage for a db+P+K Mid Punch Reversal is listed as 30; it should be 40.

    The base reversal damage for Kage's punch reversal is 30. But, you tack on (I think) 50% of the move that is reversed.


    Two more corrections:
    (a) Kage's dodge attack is -13f when blocked, not -14f (not elbow-counterable).
    (b) Kage's rising knee is 15f ex, not 14f ex (you can never use the rising knee to counter a blocked low kick from Wolf).
     
  7. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    8. The damage for a db+P+K Mid Punch Reversal is listed as 30; it should be 40.
    9. The damage for the P+K+G Mid Kick Reversal in Jumonji Stance is given as 30; it should be listed as 40.


    I thought the reversal damage was the base damage. You get an additional bonus based on the attack you reversed. I remember seeing a 50% bonus in damage figure when I had asked for a translation of some of the system info provided in the black book. I'd need some time to find the thread it was in... I think it was over at VP. Summers or kbcat provided the translation... <?>

    What attack were you reversing? Was it a 20 point attack?
    It's easy enough to test--just try reversing a weak vs. a strong attack and see if the damage for the reversal changes.

    I'll use Creed's standard disclaimer:
    I may have been on crack that night...
     
  8. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Heh, I love it when that happens...

    Chris, thanks for adding the frame stat corrections for the dodge attack and rising knee. I'd forgotten about those... they'll not be missed now when I get working on fixing the Kage movelist.
     
  9. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Some more observations/comments:
    A. The base reversal damage for Kage's punch reversal is 30. But, you tack on (I think) 50% of the move that is reversed.
    Ah, I see! You are of course right. Thanks for catching this and causing me to reverse my input. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Similarly, this makes my "correction" to the P+K+G Mid Kick Reversal from the Jumonji Stance wrong as well; its base damage is 30 as the list indicates. Perhaps a note on this for reversal damage can be added for dummies like me?
    B. Myke, why is the Rev column for reversal attacks annotated with a reversal level? I thought you can't reverse a reversal (except in the special Pai vs. Pai case).
    C. The note for the df+P Body Blow says "Slam on Float." I am still not very good at recognizing special animations, but I think this note might be wrong.
    D. The ranges of damage for the ff+K Backheel Sweep and the Forward/Backward Roll and Sweep attacks are 20 to 30. The far versions do more damage than the near versions -- this is worth noting even if you don't plan on listing the damage ranges (same for Sarah's, etc., damage range attacks).
    E. The note for the Jumping Heel Kick (during a Jumonji run) says "Stumble on Hit." Should this be changed to "Force Crouch"?
    F. There is a similar "Stumble on Hit" note for the two Dragon Punch, Landing Heel Drop attacks. Isn't this wrong, since they are knockdown attacks?
    G. In comment 7 of my previous post, I had said: The damage for the Front Revolution Kick is not 35; it's 33 (I think it's 25 & 8 for the two attacks, but I need to check it again more closely). This is a weird one. If both "kicks" of the attack connect, the damage is indeed 25 & 8 for a total of 33, as I said; but if just the second kick connects, it does 10 damage! BTW, Myke, I find it odd that you break down and note the individual damage for multiple hits from a normal attack, but will only list the final total damage for throws that have similar cumulative damage...
    H. In comment 12, I had said The ub+K Backflip Kick must be done immediately after Kage turns around, or after a preceding ub+K back turned attack (in either case, it can be buffered into the previous move).
    More accurately, and simpler, the ub+K Backflip Kick must be done immediately after any move that leaves Kage backturned. So, for instance, it can also be done immediately after a u+K Sky Knee, which technically speaking doesn't cause Kage to turn around into a backturned position.
    I. The db+K Swipe, Kick needs a "G-cancel" note.
    J. The Jumonji Stance section is missing the "move" Guard, for exiting the stance, similar to the way this is analogously noted in Sarah's Flamingo Stance section.
    K. In addition to the entries for the Forward/Backward Roll and Sweep attacks, shouldn't there be entries for Forward/Backward Shinsodan and Sweep attacks, or some kind of note referencing them?

    Edited for spelling/capitalization corrections.
     
  10. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    C. The note for the df+P Body Blow says "Slam On Float." I am still not very good at recognizing special animations, but I think this note might be wrong.

    Slam on float is correct.

    E. The note for the Jumonji Heel Kick (during a Jumonji run) says "Stumble On Hit." Should this be changed to "Force Crouch"?

    This is a guard-breaker move that causes a stagger against a blocking opponent.

    F. There is a similar "Stumble On Hit" note for the two Dragon Punch, Landing Heel Drop attacks. Isn't this wrong, since they are knockdown attacks?

    This is referring to when the dragon punch is blocked, but the opponent doesn't block the heel drop: you get a stagger animation.

    BTW, Myke, I find it odd that you break down the damage for multiple hits from normal attacks, but will only list the final total damage for throws that have similar cumulative damage...

    This is just because that's what's listed in the Black, Blue and White books.
     
  11. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I had said:
    F. There is a similar "Stumble On Hit" note for the two Dragon Punch, Landing Heel Drop attacks. Isn't this wrong, since they are knockdown attacks?
    FeixaQ noted in response:
    This is referring to when the dragon punch is blocked, but the opponent doesn't block the heel drop: you get a stagger animation.
    I just checked this, and once again you are correct. This leads to another odd situation for recording damage. I had pointed out that the damage on the list for this attack needs to be corrected from 20 to 16. It turns out that it does only 16 if the full combo connects (giving a damage total of 46), but if the Dragon Punch is blocked, then the Heel Drop portion does indeed do 20 damage as the Command List states. Perhaps a note is warranted?

    Edited to correct a typo in the damage total from 36 to 46.
     
  12. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    I just checked this, and once again you are correct. This leads to another odd situation for recording damage. I had pointed out that the damage on the list for this attack needs to be corrected from 20 to 16. It turns out that it does only 16 if the full combo connects (giving a damage total of 36), but if the Dragon Punch is blocked, then the Heel Drop portion does indeed do 20 damage as the Command List states.

    It's not an odd situation, it's because you're forgetting the float modifier of 80%. If the DP hits, the heel drop does .8x20pts. If the DP doesn't hit, but the heel drop hits an opponent standing on the ground, it does the full 20pts.
     
  13. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    FeixaQ: Thanks again! I am learning a lot from your corrections of my corrections, and I greatly appreciate them!
     
  14. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    - Corrected reversal level for Hopping Punch to LP.
    - Corrected reversal levels for Van-Halen Kick and Hop Kick to unreversable.
     
  15. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    I've only replied to the corrections I've actioned. The others were incorrect as explained by other posters.

    1. The damage for the PK Punch Kick should be changed from 10 to 20.

    Corrected.

    3. The damage for the b+PK Helix, Heel Kick should be amended from 16 to 25.

    Corrected.

    4. The damage for the df+P Body Blow needs to be changed from 15 to 16.

    Corrected.

    5. There should be a note for the charged version of the Handspring Kick saying it leaves Kage backturned.

    Added.

    6. The b,f+K Heavy Circular Kick hits high, not midlevel, and it needs a note saying Kage is left backturned.

    Level corrected, and note added.

    10. The damage numbers for two of his Ground Attacks need to be switched: The Jumping Head Smash is shown as 30 damage, but it should be 25; and the Jumping Knee Smash is shown as 25 damage, but it should be 30.

    Damage, and frame stats, corrected.

    11. In the Back Turned Attacks section, the u+K Sky Knee needs a note saying it leaves Kage backturned.

    Note added.

    12. In that same section: The ub+K Backflip Kick must be done immediately after Kage turns around, or after a preceding ub+K back turned attack (in either case, it can be buffered into the previous move). This is not noted.

    This is incorrect. The [BT] ub+K can be easily performed from an idle standing state by holding the kick when inputting the command. But this is a quirk of the Back Turned state and inputs which can be interpreted as a Turn Toward, which I feel should be explained in a Systems FAQ, rather than noted explicitly for every BT command it applies to.
     
  16. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    More precisely, this move is special high, meaning it hits high, but will also interrupt certain low moves (e.g. low punch) and can also hit opponents that are in the recovery phase after a low attack.

    Hit level corrected to H* (special high).

    Other moves that are special high include Lau's f+K+G, Lion's dodge attack, Vanessa's MT f+P+K etc.

    Ditto.

    (a) Kage's dodge attack is -13f when blocked, not -14f (not elbow-counterable).

    Corrected.

    (b) Kage's rising knee is 15f ex, not 14f ex (you can never use the rising knee to counter a blocked low kick from Wolf).

    Corrected.
     
  17. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    This is incorrect. The [BT] ub+K can be easily performed from an idle standing state by holding the kick when inputting the command.
    I didn't know or realize that. I am glad that I was incorrect, and that you took the time to provide this information. Thank you Myke.
     
  18. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Perhaps a note on this for reversal damage can be added for dummies like me?

    It's not the purpose of the movelists that I had in mind. Rather than repeat the same information for every reversal for every character, it needs to be explained only once in a Systems FAQ.

    B. Myke, why is the Rev column for reversal attacks annotated with a reversal level? I thought you can't reverse a reversal (except in the special Pai vs. Pai case).

    This was my way of showing what attack classes the reversal will work against. Would it be preferred to have this in the Hit Level column instead? I thought it was more intuitive the way it was, when you consider that a Reversal with Rev=x will work against any Attack with Rev=x. Maybe I was wrong.

    C. The note for the df+P Body Blow says "Slam on Float." I am still not very good at recognizing special animations, but I think this note might be wrong.

    "Slams" are the types of knock-down which can't be QR/TR'd from. The General Guide / Movelist under the VF4 section already explains terms like Slam, Flop, and Stumble very well. I suggest you read it if you're still confused.

    D. The ranges of damage for the ff+K Backheel Sweep and the Forward/Backward Roll and Sweep attacks are 20 to 30.

    Noted.

    E. The note for the Jumping Heel Kick (during a Jumonji run) says "Stumble on Hit." Should this be changed to "Force Crouch"?

    The General Guide will clarify what a Stumble means. Anyway, I tested this move a little more and found that it stumbles on Guard and Hit. The note has been updated accordingly.

    BTW, Myke, I find it odd that you break down and note the individual damage for multiple hits from a normal attack, but will only list the final total damage for throws that have similar cumulative damage...

    While the primary reason is just as FeixaQ explained, the other and probably more important reason is that you can never receive only part damage from a throw. You will always receive the damage stated, and the only information you could possibly hope to convey with listing part damages is to describe how the chunks visually disappear from your life bar. This doesn't have any value IMO. Whereas, it's very possible to only receive part damage from a multi-hitting attack.

    H. In comment 12, I had said The ub+K Backflip Kick must be done immediately after Kage turns around, or after a preceding ub+K back turned attack (in either case, it can be buffered into the previous move).
    More accurately, and simpler, the ub+K Backflip Kick must be done immediately after any move that leaves Kage backturned. So, for instance, it can also be done immediately after a u+K Sky Knee, which technically speaking doesn't cause Kage to turn around into a backturned position.


    I already explained how this move can be done in a previous post, but just to clarify further, the move can be performed during the recovery of anything - be it a turn-away attack, and BT'd back dash, BT'd crouch dash, BT'd hop, etc, etc. Put simply, the move can be perfomed by either holding the K (as I explained earlier) or buffered in the BT position.

    I. The db+K Swipe, Kick needs a "G-cancel" note.

    I think you mean the db+PK? If so, then yes I agree and it's corrected now.

    J. The Jumonji Stance section is missing the "move" Guard, for exiting the stance, similar to the way this is analogously noted in Sarah's Flamingo Stance section.

    This was already a Note for the d+P+K+G command, but I've now added it as "move" under the Jumonji Stance section.

    K. In addition to the entries for the Forward/Backward Roll and Sweep attacks, shouldn't there be entries for Forward/Backward Shinsodan and Sweep attacks, or some kind of note referencing them?

    I don't quite follow you here. Entries for Forward/Backward Shinsodan and Forward/Backward Sweeps already exist. The attacks listed under the Rolling Section can be performed after any kind of roll - foward roll, backward roll, forward shinsodan, or backward shinsodan.
     
  19. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    1. The Circular Kick, and the Heavy Circular Kick, and the Back Thrust are all listed as having a CR reversal level. Based on my testing, I believe these are all HK instead.

    2. The P+K Clap is listed as being reversed at the MP level. That may be true, but I am unable so far to reverse it. I will keep trying...

    3. My testing shows the b+K acts as a Sabaki against HE and EL level attacks; these are not listed. It supposedly is a Sabaki vs MK level attacks, but so far I am finding this may be true only of certain MK attacks. I will report more as I learn more and try to verify what I think I am learning. It works fine as a Sabaki vs MP, HP, and HK attacks, as indicated on the list.

    4. the other and probably more important reason is that you can never receive only part damage from a throw. You will always receive the damage stated,

    I don't think this is true, but I will verify what I believe. I think if a throw occurs at the end of a round before there is a ringout or KO, the unfinished portion of it doesn't count in determining who won. I need to confirm this though.

    5.The db+K Swipe, Kick needs a "G-cancel" note.

    I think you mean the db+PK?


    Yes. Somebody swiped the P. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    6. In addition to the entries for the Forward/Backward Roll and Sweep attacks, shouldn't there be entries for Forward/Backward Shinsodan and Sweep attacks, or some kind of note referencing them?

    I don't quite follow you here. Entries for Forward/Backward Shinsodan and Forward/Backward Sweeps already exist. The attacks listed under the Rolling Section can be performed after any kind of roll - foward roll, backward roll, forward shinsodan, or backward shinsodan.


    The input for a Forward Roll and Sweep is given as b>f+K. But if you want to chain it in as part of a continuous roll, or add Sweep damage to a Shinsodan attack, the correct input is b>f+PK. This is what I meant by the term "Forward Shinsodan and Sweep." Similar logic applies to the Backward Roll/Shinsodan and Sweep. Also, I think the command given for the rolling attack version of the Catapult Kick is misleading. I think it should be (roll) b>f+P+K+G. You can simply input b>f+K to get a Forward Roll and Sweep, but I don't think doing an immediate b>f+P+K+G will work for the Catapult Kick; it needs to be preceded by a rolling move. Last, I think the Forward/Backward Roll/Shinsodan moves should be in the Rolling Attacks section, not the Special Actions section, so as to unambiguously clarify what is and is not a roll. Before you call this stupid or obvious, perhaps you wil recall a similar discussion concerning Lion's Vacuum Punch, in which you felt that using the term "Turn Away Attack" would be understood to apply only to those moves that appear in that section of the list, and not to other "turn away" attacks, such as Lion's b,f+K+G? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    7. I think Kage's Reverse Leap Frog Wall Attack has the "Guard Stagger" property, and this should be noted. Also, since Kage executes his Wall attacks with his back turned to his opponent, I think it is a good idea to indicate that the Jumping Kick Wall Attack causes him to change the direction he is facing, but the Reverse Leap Frog doesn't.
     
  20. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I can verify that the Parry and Advancing Kick does act as a Sabaki vs. HP, MP, EL, and HK as stated on the list. It is also a Sabaki vs. HE, which is not listed. However, I am not sure that it is a Sabaki vs. MK, although the list says it is. I am not having any success in "Sabakiying" them.

    I mentioned I was having mixed results with testing the b+k as a Sabaki vs. MK. This is continuing. I have mainly been testing it on Sarah's MK kicks. I can't get it to work (yet) on her b+K; b+P+K; df+K; d+KK; Pd+K; f+K+G; u+K+G; [FS] df+K; [FS] d|u+P+K; or (evade) P+K+G. It has worked however on her P+K; ub+K+G; b+K+G; db+K; df+KKf+K; d+K; d+P+K; d+P+KK; TT df+K; [FS]KKK; [FS]KKK+G; [FS] K+G; and [FS]f+K+G. I was also able to get a chance to use it successfully on Kage's d+K+G, but couldn't succeed with using it as a Sabaki vs his or Lion's df+K. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif
     

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