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Kage's Version C Command List Errata

Discussion in 'General' started by Deniz, Apr 8, 2002.

  1. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    1. The Circular Kick, and the Heavy Circular Kick, and the Back Thrust are all listed as having a CR reversal level. Based on my testing, I believe these are all HK instead.

    Corrected.

    2. The P+K Clap is listed as being reversed at the MP level. That may be true, but I am unable so far to reverse it. I will keep trying...

    Corrected to unreversable. It's a two-handed attack. Also, the hit level has been corrected to H (was M).

    3. My testing shows the b+K acts as a Sabaki against HE and EL level attacks; these are not listed.

    Added.

    ... It supposedly is a Sabaki vs MK level attacks, but so far I am finding this may be true only of certain MK attacks.

    I'll leave the MK note in there for now until I decide how to best represent the different types of kicks that hit Mid. VP uses the MK (mid kick) and SK (side kick) notation, so I may adopt that instead.

    BTW, I've noticed that the Sabaki Chart in the VF4 section and the Sabaki notes in the Command Lists don't match up. I'll have to check the Chart too, and update if necessary.

    The input for a Forward Roll and Sweep is given as b>f+K. But if you want to chain it in as part of a continuous roll, or add Sweep damage to a Shinsodan attack, the correct input is b>f+PK....

    I misunderstood what you meant the first time, but I get it now. I've reorganised the Rolling Actions section with your suggestions, which coincidently, matches what's shown in the White Book.

    7. I think Kage's Reverse Leap Frog Wall Attack has the "Guard Stagger" property, and this should be noted. Also, since Kage executes his Wall attacks with his back turned to his opponent, I think it is a good idea to indicate that the Jumping Kick Wall Attack causes him to change the direction he is facing, but the Reverse Leap Frog doesn't.

    I've added a note to say that the Reverse Leap Frog will Guard Stagger or Back Crumble on hit. In general, there are two kinds of wall attacks - one is the off-the-wall turn toward attack and the other is an off-the-wall surprise exchange (with or without an attack). I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I believe explaining the dynamics of Wall Attacks belong outside the command lists and inside a Systems/Charater FAQ. I don't want to repeat the same information for every character's off-the-wall attack and off-the-wall surprise exchange throughout the command lists.

    I can verify that the Parry and Advancing Kick does act as a Sabaki vs. HP, MP, EL, and HK as stated on the list. It is also a Sabaki vs. HE, which is not listed. However, I am not sure that it is a Sabaki vs. MK, although the list says it is. I am not having any success in "Sabakiying" them.

    Added HE to Parry/Advancing Kick Sabaki note. Removed MK from Sabaki note, it was incorrect.

    I mentioned I was having mixed results with testing the b+k as a Sabaki vs. MK.

    As I stated above, when I decide on the best way to delineate between the different middle kicks, I'll update the Sabaki note accordingly.

    Other corrections (from FeixaQ):

    - Corrected Spinning Chop (dodge attack) exe, guard and hit frames (columns were offset).
     
  2. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    The Circular Kick, and the Heavy Circular Kick, and the Back Thrust are all listed as having a CR reversal level. Based on my testing, I believe these are all HK instead.

    Corrected.

    For some reason, this correction doesn't show up when I access the list.

    Two more corrections for reversal levels:
    1. [Jumonji Stance]d+K Frontal Sweep should be LK, not SW.
    2. [Jumonji Stance]PKK Body Blow, Toe Kick, Revolution Kick can be reversed; it should be shown as MK.
     
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    For some reason, this correction doesn't show up when I access the list.

    Sorry, it's there now. Promise!

    1. [Jumonji Stance]d+K Frontal Sweep should be LK, not SW.

    Corrected.

    2. [Jumonji Stance]PKK Body Blow, Toe Kick, Revolution Kick can be reversed; it should be shown as MK.

    Corrected.
     
  4. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    that you, shroomy?
     
  5. sayow

    sayow Well-Known Member

    Careful, bubbah...

    <font color=yellow>Jason Cha made the same mistake and got his virtual hand slapped... Definitely not imashroom. Deniz is working with Mike on getting the errata on the movelists. Hang tight and we'll all see a much tighter and accurate site.</font color=yellow>
    /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  6. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: Careful, bubbah...

    1. Due to a repetitive lack of success on my part, I don't think the following three Back Turned Attacks can be reversed, despite what the list says: ub+K Backflip Kick; uf+K Backflip Kick; P+GP Overhead Chop. I believe I have now checked all of Kage's moves for their hit and reversal levels, and damage, and have noted any discrepancies with regards to these specific columns.
    2. The Auto High Punch Inashi and the P+G Flipping Takedown from Jumonji Stance should have notes indicating they cause Kage to exit the Jumonji Stance.
    3. FWIW, my post on the Sabaki effects of Kage's b+K contains a minor typo. Sarah's P+K was not parried by Kage's b+K; it was the other way around (post-midnight misreading of notes). I have since observed the b+k working its Sabaki magic on a few more MK level attacks though: Lion's ff+K; ff+KK; and u+K. Not that it's important...
     
  7. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    More corrections

    1. Due to a repetitive lack of success on my part, I don't think the following three Back Turned Attacks can be reversed, despite what the list says: ub+K Backflip Kick; uf+K Backflip Kick; P+GP Overhead Chop. I believe I have now checked all of Kage's moves for their hit and reversal levels, and damage, and have noted any discrepancies with regards to these specific columns.

    I couldn't reverse these either. Corrected them all to unreversable.

    2. The Auto High Punch Inashi and the P+G Flipping Takedown from Jumonji Stance should have notes indicating they cause Kage to exit the Jumonji Stance.

    - Note added to Auto HP Inashi: Exits stance.
    - Note added to JM Flipping Takedown: Exits stance after successful throw.

    3. FWIW, my post on the Sabaki effects of Kage's b+K contains a minor typo. Sarah's P+K was not parried by Kage's b+K; it was the other way around (post-midnight misreading of notes). I have since observed the b+k working its Sabaki magic on a few more MK level attacks though: Lion's ff+K; ff+KK; and u+K. Not that it's important...

    Interesting. This will prove helpful when I get around to sorting out the different classes of mid-kicks.
     
  8. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    Interesting. This will prove helpful when I get around to sorting out the different classes of mid-kicks.

    Heh, I thought I would be the only one interested. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I also got it to work on Lion's Hopkick. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I have not succeeded so far vs Lion's df+K or b+PPK. I am going to fool around tonight with his f+P+KK and f+K+G, and with Kage's MK attacks to see how the b+K works with them, and will probably do this systematically as I work through the various characters' lists. With regards to this testing: my failure with Lion's b+PPK, and Sarah's u|d+P+K+G and [FS]u|d+P+K attacks, could simply be an issue of setting up the right timing when conducting an experiment; ie., my failure could be because of the fast nature of these attacks and the complexity of the respective animations involved (both for Kage's b+K and the MK kicks), coupled with my relatively low skill level. The b+PPK works so fast, for instance, that it is difficult to execute a b+K timed to hit at an appropriate animation point. I will keep trying to parry these attacks, but if anyone else with more skill wants to give these attacks a shot, that might help.

    A question asked earlier by Yupa concerning Kage's Hopping Punch:

    Huzzah! That's news to me. Is this hopping punch a true low attack or special low?

    Its hit level is L, not L*.

    BTW, with regards to the comment I made:

    I believe I have now checked all of Kage's moves for their hit and reversal levels, and damage, and have noted any discrepancies with regards to these specific columns.

    Let me clarify that I am referring to the VFDC Version C Command List only. Also, in case it is not obvious, whenever I come across a move that is listed as not being reversible, if after a suitable amount of testing I can't reverse it, I assume the list is correct and make no comment.
     
  9. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: Careful, bubbah...

    ahahahh...just read jason's post. i hardly check much of the board these days, missed it. i just find it amusing because he sounds so much like shroom, and (from a brief scan of some of them) the threads seem just as much about correcting deniz as correcting the movelists. it's 1999 all over again!

    that said, i maintain more than a few text guides, and it's nice to have input from curious, sharp eyed people.
     
  10. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: More corrections

    Also, in case it is not obvious, whenever I come across a move that is listed as not being reversible, if after a suitable amount of testing I can't reverse it, I assume the list is correct and make no comment.

    You may already know this, but if you're having difficulty with reversal timing and if you suspect it's HP, HK, HE, MK, MP, EL, KN reversable, then Aoi's Yin-Yang stance is very useful. Set the CPU to perform said attack and you simply hold the stance and observe the result.
     
  11. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    Ah, very good suggestion regarding using Aoi's YY-stance. Thanks.

    I've been using record and playback in free training for the most part to check things. If I find I can't reverse something on reflex, what I do when I record an action is tap G 3 times and then do the attack that I want to try to reverse. When I playback the action, the computer controled character will flex into guarding stance 3 times then attack. It makes timing the reversal/sabaki a lot easier.
     
  12. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    You may already know this, but if you're having difficulty with reversal timing and if you suspect it's HP, HK, HE, MK, MP, EL, KN reversable, then Aoi's Yin-Yang stance is very useful. Set the CPU to perform said attack and you simply hold the stance and observe the result.

    I did try doing that, but stopped because I suspect it may not be reliable. I was going to mention a concern with it when I eventually start an errata thread for her Command List. Here's the problem I ran into. I was not able to (and I am still not able to) reverse Sarah's Step Hook Kick and Step Heel Kick, or Kage's Hop Kick, by straightforward reversal attempts. You also agreed they coudn't be reversed. Yet Aoi's YY stance acts as an Inashi vs. them. So either they CAN be reversed and I was wrong in thinking otherwise (unlikely), or the YY stance can Inashi some moves that can't be reversed (undocumented around here if true), or I misunderstand what the animation is showing. I'd appreciate it if you and Yupa, and anyone else as well, took a look at these three moves vs Aoi's YY stance, and share what you think. It has me befuddled.

    In the meanwhile, back to Kage errata:
    1. The notes column shows Shun gets sobered by Kage's b+PK Helix, Heelkick, and by his Jumonji Run Jumping Heel Kick. These notes are incorrect; the moves do not sober him.
    2. The list says Kage's Protruding Front Kick causes a Stomach Crumble on hit; I believe it's actually a Head Crumble.
     
  13. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    2. The list says Kage's Protruding Front Kick causes a Stomach Crumble on hit; I believe it's actually a Head Crumble.

    JM P+K is stomach KD
    JM K+G is head KD.
     
  14. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    JM K+G is head KD.

    Yes, you are agreeing with what I said. The JM K+G is the Protruding Front Kick (that's its name on the Command List). /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  15. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: More corrections

    - Corrected Crumble note (to Head) for JM K+G.
    - Removed Sober notes from b+PK and JM (run) K.
     
  16. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    Ah, ok. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I never know the names of moves, bleh. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif
     
  17. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    1. The Izuna Drop is listed as a combo throw followup to the Ten Foot Toss. Normally, damage from moves in a combo combine. Since this is not the case with the Izuna Drop's 60 damage (it is not cumulative with the 40 damage from the Ten Foot Toss), perhaps a note to this effect might be appropriate.

    2. The following midlevel Kage kicks are those that should be given an SK reversal level: PPPK; PPb+PK; b+PK; b+K; b+KKK; df+K; [Jumonji Stance] PK; [Jumonji Stance] PKK; [Jumonji Stance] K; [Jumonji Stance] K+G; [Jumonji Stance] P+K.
     
  18. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    One more to add:

    Kage's df+P executes in 23f, not 14f.
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: More corrections

    - Corrected exe on df+P to 23f.
    - Changed Reversal to SK for the following: PPPK; PPb+PK; b+PK; b+K; b+KKK; df+K; [Jumonji Stance] PK; [Jumonji Stance] PKK; [Jumonji Stance] K; [Jumonji Stance] K+G; [Jumonji Stance] P+K.

    I won't be adding a note regarding the damage on the Izuna Drop. One only needs to try it out once in play to know the damage isn't cumulative.
     
  20. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Re: More corrections

    Here are some frame rate discrepancies between VFDC and VP Kage movelists:

    d+K: VFDC -- Grd: -14, Hit: -6; VP -- Grd: -16, Hit: -14
    f+K+G (second hit): VFDC -- Hit: +4, MC: +6; VP is blank for these.
    b+P (entering Jumonji Stance from Closed Stance): VFDC -- Hit: -2, MC: +5; VP -- Hit: +2, MC: +9
    f+P+G (side|back versions): VFDC -- Hit: +14; VP: +11
    f+P+K Reverse Leap Frog Wall Attack: VP has some odd parenthetical -32 frame references for Hit and MC that don't appear in the VFDC stats.
     

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