Kage's Version C Command List Errata

Re: More corrections

So do they distinguish between Inashis/reversals that are limb (right/left) specific?

Yes.

For example the same High Punch reversal animation can be seen on both high and mid punches, depending on the attack being reversed, but the reversal will only be listed once.

Even though the commands are different (b+P+K vs. db+P+K)? That just seems plain wrong to me...

Yes. The first two reversal entries for Akira looks like this in the White Book:

(name :: command)
Gaimonchouchuu :: (right HMP) b (or db) P+K
Youhou :: (left HMP) b (or db) P+K

However, in the Blue Book, they're listed separately:

(name :: command :: notes)
<HP Reversal> Gaimonchouchuu :: b P+K :: right HP
<HP Reversal> Youhou :: b P+K :: left HP
<MP Reversal> Gaimonchouchuu :: db P+K :: right MP
<MP Reversal> Youhou :: db P+K :: left MP

I take it you still do not consider a limb-specific distinction in attacks to be a functional difference, right?

Not when the only difference between a limb-specific reversal was the animation. However, since it was brought up in this thread, certain reversal animations can lead to guaranteed followups, so I'm prepared to re-do the reversals on the VFDC command lists. Should I list them as they appear in the White Book or Blue Book? (FYI, the Black Book is the same as the White Book.)

Thanks for taking time to explain. Actually, I personally believe it is better, more consistent and flexible, and less confusing to list the reversal classes in the Notes column.

Your suggestion is closest to the Blue Book representation. So, I'm inclined to reorganise the Reversal sections according to the Blue Book. If you (or anyone) have any other ideas, I'd like to hear them.

BTW, why are so many not "able" to spell "reversible" correctly.

heh, I always thought it was spelt "reversable" as in "deceivable".

Unless you are planning a change, this is NOT the way damage for multi-hitting attacks is listed normally. I only recall you doing it this way for Pai's Trip.

Ah, thanks for picking that up. You're right, the total damage is listed. I've updated the legend (and fixed that typo too).

Re: (near) :: I would suggest the slight change to something like: (near) requires your character to be as close to the opponent as can be while still allowing the move to appear.

Fair enough. Legend updated.

 

Re: More corrections

1 The f,b+K Circular Kick and the b,f+K Heavy Circular Kick need to be updated from H to H* special high attacks.

Updated. (b,f+K was already H*).

2. The Backheel Sweep, the Forward Roll & Sweep, and the Backward Roll & Sweep need to have the "damage varies with distance" notes updated to "damage increases with distance." The listed damage ranges of 20~30 are correct.

Updated. I split the sweep entries into near and far variants.

3. The P+K Clap causes a very special stagger -- it can't be struggled out of (no joystick icon shows up). Even the animation is not the usual stagger one. Shouldn't this inability to struggle out of it be noted in some way?

It is indeed a special stagger. Although you can't struggle out of it, the actual struggle animation can be cancelled at a certain point. On hit, the opponent reels back taking two steps, pauses, and takes another two quick steps back again. Any input after the initial two steps will cancel the rest of the animation. I've updated the note to read "Guard and Hit Stagger (unstrugglable).

4. The two Catapult Kick entries have a note saying that a high guard is not possible. This is true of all low attacks, which is what they are, so why the note?

This note was originally from the Blue Book, where it was actually listed as a H level attack with a note that it could nould not be guarded high. The White Book correctly lists this as a low level attack with no such note. Updated accordingly.

5. Myke: Does either the Blue or White book separate Kage's [JS]P+K+G reversal into two separate entries?

No it doesn't. I did this in order to clearly state what each attack class could be reversed. However, I'm in the process of revising Reversals on all the Command Lists (I'll reply more on this in your thread "Concerning Command List Revisions").

________

I had asked:
The two Catapult Kick entries have a note saying that a high guard is not possible. This is true of all low attacks, which is what they are, so why the note?

After checking this out, it is clear that the note is in error. What should be there is a note saying that a low guard is not possible, except when "near."

I believe you're mistaken. Low guard is possible and in fact, the only way to guard this move, whether it's near or far.

 

Re: More corrections

1. The following moves cause a Crouch Guard Stagger [or Myke, do you prefer the term “Low Guard Stagger?â€Â]: d+P+K Upward Chop; (d) P+K+G Spinning Chop; (u) P+K+G Spinning Chop; [Jumonji Stance] f+K Advancing Knee; (from crouching position) df+P Downward Chop.

Updated (using Crouch Guard Stagger).

2. The Guard Stagger note for the charged version of the QCF+K Handspring Kick should be changed to a High Guard Stagger (it does not stagger an opponent in a crouch/low guarding position).

Updated.

3. The following moves cause a Crouch Stagger (i.e., it doesn’t matter whether or not the opponent is guarding): f+P Elbow; df+K Side Kick; [Jumonji Stance] PK “Body Blow, Toe Kickâ€Â; [Jumonji Stance] PKK “Body Blow, Toe Kick, Revolution Kickâ€Â; [Jumonji Stance] K Advancing Kick; [Jumonji Stance] f+P Turning Elbow.

Updated.

4. The b+KKK does not knockdown or stagger on a normal hit, so shouldn’t its Hit column have a number in it?

The hit data is also missing from the Blue and White books.

5. The b,f+K Heavy Circular Kick has a “Force Crouch†note I believe is wrong/redundant. It staggers a guarding opponent (and any resultant ‘crouch’ is never noted for a stagger) or knocks down a non-guarding opponent.

Removed Force Crouch from note.

6. The (back turned) P+GP Overhead Chop has a Guard Stagger note, but it also staggers on a hit.

Updated.

7. The f+P+K Reverse Leap Frog wall attack has a Guard Stagger note, but it also staggers a crouching opponent on a hit (i.e., it needs a Crouch Stagger note as well). It does not stagger a non-guarding standing opponent.

Updated.

8. The hit level for the f+P+K+G Jumping Kick wall attack should be M, not H. Its note that it does a “Head Crumble on Hit†is inaccurate; when it hits a crouching guarder, as the Guard Stagger note it conflicts with (for crouching guarders) indicates, it only staggers. The note should say something like “Head Crumble on hit to non-guarding opponent.â€Â

If you're guarding, while standing or crouching, you'll be staggered. If it hits (i.e. you're not guarding), while standing or crouching, then you'll get head crumbled. I know that one may argue that a crouching defender will be "hit" because it's a mid-level attack, but I think the "Guard Stagger" note covers this case. So, I'll leave the note as it is.

9. I don’t believe the P+K Clap causes any damage during an HP Sabaki. Shouldn’t this be noted? And doesn’t that actually make it an Inashi vs HP? (It does do damage during an HK Sabaki).

It's still a Sabaki because the P+K is still an attack in it's own right. Sabaki's are attacks with special deflecting properties against certain attack classes.

10. The f+K+G Revolution Kick has a note indicating that its Hit/Counter data apply to the second hit, but no such data is given. As part of this, it also has a Slam note, but this applies to the first hit only. It is possible to get hit by the second one alone, and it does not cause a Slam (or any kind of knockdown).

If the second hit doesn't slam at all then it would be possible to instantly recover whenever the f+K+G hit everytime because it'd just be a regular knockdown. But we know that is not possible. If you look at this move in slow motion, you'll see that the first hit simply knocks down (like a regular standing kick would) and the second kick slams them while they're still in the air. So, I've ammended the note to read "First Hit Knocks Down, Second Hit Slams on Air Hit." The frame data shown assumes the entire move connects, so I've removed the note referring to second hit only since it implies the data refers to the second hit in isolation. I might work out the frame data for the second hit in isolation later on.

11. The note for the (Jumonji Run) K Jumping Heel Kick should be changed from “Stumble on Guard and Hit†to “Stumble on Guard or Hit,†so as not to imply it applies only to a hit on a guarding opponent (i.e., a crouching guarder).

Updated.

________

Myke: One of my previous posts mentions that the (back turned) P+K Vertical Chop is a midlevel attack which recovers low. When you added the note to the list, you apparently went one row too far, and erroneously entered it for the (back turned) P+KK "Vertical Chop, Lifting Kick" instead. This should be corrected.

Oops. Fixed.

 

Re: More corrections

Added Rising Attacks (omitted longer delay for now due to lack of frame stats).

 

Re: More corrections

Well I promise to keep reminding Myke until the b+K+G Back Thrust really does have its reversal level corrected from HCR to HK. It's High time it did...

haha, thanks for picking it up. Corrected now.