Kanazawa CHINJUUZUKAN

hmmm..i think for akira -10 is quite good becos as i told danny, he no longer has to input EXXXXXTEG.

He can just safely DTEG and no need to worry abt someone ambusing him if his intention to dodge EDTEG causes a failed evade, thus eating meaty combos.

In some ways, i think it's actually better than ever~

 

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LOL, OK guys, you win!

Alucard: I think you're missing my main point...almost never do I think a character is overpowered or underpowered. Also, I don't think I agree with your blanket statements (x is better/worse in y version).

Delune: Did I say sucked? Nope. But 23 frames is a lot...even Jacky's + executes faster, and has longer range and similar damage potential. Hmmm.....

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lol, sorry, ---- but i really dont have anything personal against ya incase u are wondering. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

just gonna say that normally 20 odd frame launchers usually have an evasive / sabaki proporty to it. like wolf's SS or goh's b+p+k it's usable even with unlogical frame status because of it's evasive abilities. kage's big slap is not only a killer whiff tool, but it's safe, recovers low (so no instant throw nitaku), sobers shun and avoids err...everything KTallguy said..

i dont really see much of a risk. (did i forget to mention half-circular? /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)





---- btw, does anyone know why i have become the author of this thread.? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

must be becos u r the only wolf player in this thread.

poor soul ^0^

 

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He can just safely DTEG and no need to worry abt someone ambusing him if his intention to dodge EDTEG causes a failed evade, thus eating meaty combos.

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This is a pretty interesting point - being in a 'safer' situation at -10 than -6. Still you've got to weigh it up with the fact that you can use reverse nitaku at -6. Making your opponent afraid to use throws and the potential damage make it pretty important. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Ah, but we're not at -6 anymore ^0^

might as well wish for it to kuzure down on yellow counter no? hohohoho

worse, could be -11 ^^

 

There's a character in this game called Kage!? Well shit...

 

I can't see -10 working better for akira than -6... even if you can commit to safer defensive techs, opponents will not fear throwing you! Fear of an escape is not as bad as fear of a yoho! Akira just can't press the guessing game at -10 like he could at -6.

 

dude..if anyone eats a yoho at when akira is at -6......

that's a pretty wrong guessing game the player took, no?

(now is a good time to stand up n say 'yes, that has happened to me b4 too')

*grumble grumble*

 

This discussion has strayed too far away from the initial topic, which is the amount of throw directions kage has and the command change of TFT. It had nothing to do with how good he was movelist wise, only his throw game. Sure kage is strong, but there is no point to talk about much of the movelist because Sega had shown no interest in tweaking it. The initial discussion was formed based upon the fact that TFT command change was a way to balance Kage's throw game, and the discrepancy was there, not at his overall movelist. One of the biggest reasons why kage is so effective is because much of his moves are geared to punish the way most characters are played against one another. For example, using high jab to gain advantage, counterattacking after evading an elbow., back dashing into attack, etc.. These strategies are very effective for any characters to use against any other except when put into a matchup with kage. Much of his moves are designed to take advantage of the opponent doing those techniques. Hence, as a result, most people will get the impression that kage is overpowered, when it's only that their strategies against kage is flawed. I am not claiming he is not a strong character or the opposite, this is just something that I think many people are ignoring. This is like someone who don't do throw escapes complaining that wolf, goh, or any characters with high dmg throws are overpowered. This argument, then follows, is a moot one.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out some of the ignored facts when kage is compared to other characters. Because it seems unfair to say other characters *deserved* to have their movelist weakened.

For starters, I just wanted to point out some of Lau's points because I know him best.
Both upknife and are 15 frames. Upknife can be low punched, ducked, evaded, sabakied, reversed. Yes the rest of the are guaranteed, but it leaves Lau at -10, which means it's not a good starting point for being offensive. I understand that the frames are misleading, since he has a potential follow up, but, this is why a Lau player never wants the upknife string to hit without a float. After the string normal hits, your guesses are a full circular high, a full circular low, or a linear mid back flip. When Lau delays the last attack for a guess, a low punch from the opponent will hit the low sweep and the high sweep, sometimes even counter hit. The back kick flip is the only thing that can beat a ducking opponent or the potential low sweep. This attack however, even on LC, leaves Lau at -5, if it normal hits, Lau is at -13. Against another Lau players, standing palm is guaranteed, and against a kage player, is guaranteed. This is NOT a move that you want to hit on normal hit, thus, a ducking opponent after the upknife series is a very dangerous guess for the Lau player, and it's not something you want to hit just normal hit, thus, for the move to NOT float now in a small counter situation in FT, is a very very big blow to his game. Since Lau players can no longer punish the opponent when they guess correctly against a safe poke.

Kage's on the other hand, is also linear, and when evaded, it's not a very good situation for kage, so it's not a move to be abused. Similar to the upknife, it is uncounterable, thus it has a strong guess game associated to it. The move in evo, however, floats even on mC, it is also mid, thus it is able to be used as a float tool at -15, it will also float when it counters a low punch, something that the upknife can not do. The damage potential of the move, is less than the upknife. In FT, both versions remain uncounterable. A2, however, has tremendous range, something that the FT upknife can not be compared to. It is -6 on guard, uncounterable, similar to upknife, but it can be used to punish a whiffed attack since it knocks down even on mC. The new upknife , however, has a much shorter range, and the damage potential has been decreased tremendously since now Lau is limited to doing standing palm combos. The string is also both high attacks, and Lau no longer can do the series for the dmg.

Another point to make is that if Lau doesn't want to do the high/low sweep/back flip game, he can do the option, however, Lau is back turned at -1 when it's guaranteed, if it's not, it can be evaded.

The point here is that the way each character is played is fundamentally different. Each move has its specific uses at specific times, so to compare them, simply by numbers, there will be obvious differences. The difference, however, should be expected and it only adds to the depth of the game as a whole. It is then, of no relevance, to simply use this inherent difference to judge the characters in such a simplified manner.

The original discussion, was one of equal basis. Which is the amount of guaranteed damage throw directions. Kage's throw game is something that's obviously in need of being addressed, as proved by the tweaks given through FT, and through each version upgrades. The discussion, then, is a very focused issue. Kage, without a doubt, has one of the best movesets, throws aside, in the game. When you include his throws, his throwing potential overpowers the majority of the characters. The point is then to talk about to what extent should his throw game be tweaked as it is currently underway.

Any character should need work to be effective. My argument about Kage's TFT command change is exactly that. Look at the amount of reaction and quick decision making now required for Jacky or Lau. (+ combo, upknife variation) Now look at the command of half circle back instead of just being back. Does this change seem like an equal one? Throws being a 270 motion doesn't prevent other players from throwing them out in a quick and timely fasion. Even though they may be more limited in appearance due to the complexity of the command, why shouldn't TFT be something similar to that? TFT is without a doubt the strongest throw that Kage possess, and one of the most threatening and versatile throws in the whole game. Why should it be something of intermediate command and something so easily accessible? On top of Kage's already strong throw game. This has nothing to do with his striking game, since it's pointless to compare. I just hope people realize the difference here and can see the imbalance at hand here.


One last thing I wanted to add, is that at -14, kage can knee or elbow, or . It's not great, but at the same time, how many main moves does kage have that puts him at -13 or -14? When would a kage do or out of randomness? None of kage's main launchers (when risked) puts him in a -13, -14 situation when blocked. So it's unfair to say that he has no moves to punish when kage himself cannot be punished using those 13, 14 frames moves of other characters.

 

Ice-9 how come every time you post you always start off with some sugarcoating like “ok you guys win?â€Â, “great post.. but†or “I agree with you but..†then you use the rest of the post to disagree with them. Is this what your life is about sugarcoating and hiding behind the money your parents gave you? At this point it is clear you are a kage fanboy, 10 times more so than I am a wolf fanboy. Character loyoalty? Because he is a ninja.. come on man.. get a grip of reality. You are too short, too ugly and too weak to be a ninja, even in a videogame. I like how you instantly made a Kage is wonderful thread as soon as the Shangster is banned. fucking moron.
Your “Analysis†of Kage’s strength is so warped that is beyond any logic or sense. What you think you can make a point just because you don’t use foul language? If that’s the case retarded kids (like yourself) would rule the world.
To list TFT as a 75-80point is as noob as it comes… you know fair well what TFT is faggot but let me list it for you b/c you are a fanboy.
It does at least 80 to 85 points of damage, it’s b+pg (hbc+pg so what? no decent kage will fuck this command up. If he does he sucks! Try playing wolf for a change)
It rings out from ½ of ring for most open stages,
It rings out over low walls,
It’s 100+ damage near a wall,
It will set up a raising game if the player decides to pressure instead of damage (and you still get decent damage),
The list goes on and on why TFT is THE best throw in game PERIOD. You know why the wolf player ate 6 d+pgs? You think he doesn’t know how to press d+pg?? Are you stupid? He chooses not to escape d+pg because he fears the TFT that much… There is something wrong when a player rather take a 60point!!! secondary throw because he is scared of a character’s primary throw THAT much. This kind of fear is something Wolf should be able to instill but he can’t… Throw escape is much simpler against wolf because f and b is 90% of his throw game. Yes 90%!!! Kage can use his throws to ring out, change ring positions, set up oki… Try escaping wolf’s f and b, you leave wolf with no ring out, no oki, average damage. And don’t forget if d/f is escaped vs wolf he’s pretty much fucked. Top the fact wolf’s attacks blow monkey cock, he has no decent circular attacks that would make the opponent ‘fear’ dodge. Ice-9 try to play wolf seriously for awhile other than to mash b+k before you start comparing shit. Try this.. play wolf.. play wolf when you are losing, but don’t run back to your kage, play wolf when you are frustrated. Try that… Oh yeah.. you are an idiot, Kage player is 80% and Wolf player is 60%? THAT’S BECAUSE HE IS A KAGE PLAYER THAT’S WHY HE IS 80% you fuck head. Please cry some more because TFT became hcb.. it should have been since vf4. it should have been 270 LONG time ago.. Do you even realize everyone’s best throws have some difficulty to do other than Kage?
It's just easier to win with Kage, YES! Kage players need less skill to reach the same level as other characters. That's the fact of VF4. For god sakes look at Jeffry.. Compare Kage’s throwing game vs. Jeffry’s. Kage wins in every dept. Compare Kage’s attack game vs Jeffry’s. Kage wins in every dept. Compare Kage’s Stance game with Jeffry’s.. Don’t make me laugh. Go head make a comparasion with Kage and Jeffery and make a fucking fool out of yourself again.

Stop crying d/f+p is so slow… already it’s the most annoying move ever.. what you want me to do a knee to beat your d/f+p so you can block it then TFT me? Plz ok..
Oh BK.. -8 doesn’t = to free throw if you recover back turned or side turned which is what I think is the case with wolf’s new throw.
It’s funny the only people defending Kage are two hardcore Kage players.. Myke you banned me because you want to suppressed the injustice kage has caused all the other characters, but this shit just comes back and back.. Just realize the truth and accept it: both you and ice-9 would be a lesser player if your main was Wolf. TRUST ME. And Ice-9 is a fucking fool!

 

Can we start a get shang un-banned petition?

 

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Alucard: I think you're missing my main point...almost never do I think a character is overpowered or underpowered. Also, I don't think I agree with your blanket statements (x is better/worse in y version).



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VFB Kage pretty much sucked ass compared to FTA, thats a "fact", ask any decent player and he will tell you the same thing.

 

While it's true that Kage should be tuned down in some places (especially the vf4c chop), a lot of people are blowing things out of proportion.

First off, if you want to sit around and play paper-&-pencil VF all day, you're gonna come up with some warped results. However, that's no replacement for the real thing. I don't know a single person engaged in this discussion about Kagay being overpowered who is a top Japanese player, or even a fucking mediocre one. It's mostly a bunch of NAVF folks with a few other voices, and we all know how deep the scene is here in the States.

But what really gets me isn't the recent popularity of ninja-hate on VFDC, it's the blatant disregard for civility or mature discussion that's poppin up all over the place. Yea, this is an online forum and the internet generally doesn't endorse respect for your fellow man, but come the fuck on. Threads go way off topic, Wolf and Jeff have become fuckin martyrs (even though I've seen Jeff tear it up, because two correct decisions secures a round and if Jeff gets a knockdown then you're fucked), and God forbid that Kage win any fucking matches anymore. Shit, if Kage ever goes on a run, it can and has consumed VFDC discussion for weeks. The worst part of this is that it really doesn't benefit anybody, it just makes people think that their character sucks. You know, I have problems against Vanessa and Sarah, and I see both of them racking up strings of wins, so they must be overpowered, right? I mean, Vanessa can set up several -2 perfect nitaku situations, she's got handhold, the moves, sabakis, a huge and diverse moveset, and a solid throwgame (Judgment Guilty on wall makes my balls hurt). However, my problems with her really stem from my own playstyle and ability, and the stats that I choose to pull out of my ass to say she's overpowered would be biased by my opinions.

My point is that this kind of 'analysis' is a waste of everyone's time. Anyone with a bachelor's degree in theoryfighter bullshitting can read gamebreaking strengths and crippling weaknesses into virtually every character. The original purpose of this thread was much more focused, concise, and interesting than the garbage that it's begun to devolve into. Unfortunately, (insert character here)-is-way-overpowered arguments just keep going on without life or worth. They're like cancer; amorphous blobs growing out of control, without purpose, but with the effect of making VFDC life in general blow ass. Jesus.

 

offbrandninja -> kage player

lol

ill sign for shang unbanned =p

 

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Kage in 4b pretty much sucked overall. Jumonji was so unrewarding that most Kage players never used it.

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lol? Apparently, ice-9 doesnt think so? I agree that VF4B Kage was unplayable, but evob Kage was fine to me, relatively speaking compared to the other evob chars.

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What fantasmagorical, matchup-breaking properties does the old elbow bring back?

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Big difference. Kage's only weakness in close up games was that he never had a good 14fr move for poking/pressuring, his PRE-FT elbows had no range, it was easy to avoid his elbow with eg. Lau's [p][k], that was pretty much his only weakness. Also, dodging Kage's elbow in FT no longer guarantees anything (cept for throws) in most situations, cos dodges have been made slower, and going into jumonji reduces that by a further 2 fr. You'd have to dodge the elbow real early in its exe to get any sort of guaranteed counter, which is bs.

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As for the DP combo, while you have many players in Japan able to perform this near 100%, it's hardly the deciding factor in any matches featuring Kage.


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Yea, its not very useful, just like the other "cool" shit the other chars got in FT, flashy but doesnt change the game that much. Im not 100% sure about this but I think its counterable by a quick move (15ish fr) if you TR the slam. I take back what I said about his dp combo.

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And you make it sound like Akira, Jacky and Lau got worse and worse with each revision, when in fact they got a lot of cool and highly effective shit (as did everyone).

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No thanks, I'd rather have EVOB Lau or Jacky back. Im sure all Akira players would gladly sacrifice and the rest of that "cool shit" to get his old SDE, shrm, dplm, etc... back.

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Akira's SDE is the most rewarding elbow class attack, hands down (anyone disagree?) and goes under high punches. Making it throw counterable, while DE is not, doesn't equal an automatic "nerf" for the move. The opponent has to be on the ball constantly to recognise when Akira does an SDE instead of a DE. I think most Evo Akira's were entering throw escapes at -6 anyway. To compensate, Akira's DE has been made more comboable. This is a change that I think most reasonable players can accept.

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Being throw counterable and uncounterable is a big difference, you cant reverse nitaku with a big move after a throw counterable move, you can do that after a -6 move.

My point is not that PRE-FT SDE is a crappy move that cannot be abused, Im trying to say that there is no justification for a nerf unless the other chars had received corresponding nerfs in their main abusable moves at the same time. Changing TFT command to HCB is hardly a nerf....

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Lau's UpKn.. this was a long time coming IMHO. Upper class, great launcher, uncounterable (-4), with the added bonus of having followups. Even when it doesn't launch, aren't the followup P's guaranteed?


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Srider replied before I could. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Jacky's bK+G requires more skill to combo now, so does that mean it's nerfed and useless? It's still a great long range attack and uncounterable, but just requires more work to combo. Personally speaking, my interest level in Jacky has increased the more intricate he has become. I got sick of seeing the same two combos that worked on every character, all the time.

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Nope, but dmg is now reduced when you get a hit at close range(different combos). Thats a nerf. Lets take a look at his Beat knuckle. It went from a float on any hit + half circular move in VF4B to only floats on mC + linear in FTA. lol. There were several other nerfs made to his game but I dont care to repeat them. Again, I dont see of his new cool shit moves dominant in any of the movies I've seen, and I've likely watched over 100 of them now, what is this new cool and highly effective move that you are talking about myke?

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It sounds like you, and everyone else, won't be happy until Kage goes back to the 4b version. In minor counter situations up to -16 high recovery, Kage has no combo starters or quick knockdown attacks. All he's got is PPbP for +1 into guessing game, whereas Akira, Lau and Jacky all have guaranteed combos.

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Nope, I've said that in an earlier post that I know Kage doesnt have any fast lauchers, therefore I dont really mind if hes got 2 decent (decent! NOT 60pts OMFG!!!) throws + a very good throw. But, I also mentioned that almost all of Kage's lauchers are uncounterable, and they frequently leave him at small disadvantages or they recover low (). Unless you MC him out of an atttack, you are unlikely to ever get a guaranteed combo with those "fast launchers".

Anyway, its been a long "discussion", this is my last post on this matter cos I sense a flame war brewing and I dont want to be part of it. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

P.S
I admit that Im whinning but Im also boycotting FTA by not playing it (much). I will likely play FTB, which will be better balanced, I think.

 

that is...if we get B~~

 

OffBrandNinja, great post.

 

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Can we start a get shang un-banned petition?

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I don't think we need to, it looks like he already got himself unbanned (sort of)

 

I just want to say a few words.

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I don't know a single person engaged in this discussion about Kagay being overpowered who is a top Japanese player, or even a fucking mediocre one. It's mostly a bunch of NAVF folks with a few other voices, and we all know how deep the scene is here in the States.


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Quite true, but there is talk of how strong Kage is in Japan, when compared with characters like Goh and Wolf. Japanese players are much more likely to just kind of not care or continue to play, less likely to bitch.

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But what really gets me isn't the recent popularity of ninja-hate on VFDC, it's the blatant disregard for civility or mature discussion that's poppin up all over the place.

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I agree. Shang man, your a great guy, but don't insult people so much on the forums man! I mean, shit talking is fun but...I duno, you kind of blow it out of proportion. I'd love to have you back on the forums, but I think just for the public welfare =P you could tone it down just a little... but then again, it's my opinion and doesn't mean much... still, I'd like to see you back, you give good points and passionately defend them...

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God forbid that Kage win any fucking matches anymore. Shit, if Kage ever goes on a run, it can and has consumed VFDC discussion for weeks. The worst part of this is that it really doesn't benefit anybody, it just makes people think that their character sucks.

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You don't get it. We're looking at the playstyle of the players. When Wolf/Goh wins... (I haven't seen a Goh win in ages), it usually because they make very good guesses and take risks... the recent movie where that Wolf beat that Kage (I believe it was 8) was a good example. The typical Kage (and also Lau) that you see both in the videos and represented in gamecenters in Japan does not seem to need to take as many risks, basically uses the same moves as other Kage players, and overall, isn't exciting to watch. So what if they aren't exciting matches, but Kage can play like that and win. Of course, the skill of the player matters, but you typically see Kage win, and not in an interesting way.

VF is supposed to have a counter for everything, but Kages have found a formula that seems to give them a good advantage, where only very correct and specific guesses will leave them safe, and this formula seems to work on every character... Kage/Lau isn't supremely godly overpowered, but he is much more risk free, and might I say, simplistic, than a character like Vanessa, or Wolf, who have much more to think about, IMO.

I just think it's a shame that most Kage players all play the same and are able to win.

 

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OffBrandNinja, great post.

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i love how ice-9 loves to kiss ass to all kage kissassers with "great post"

yet with valid real arguements with points proven, comments are lack thereof because ice-9 has such a narrow field of vision