Kanazawa CHINJUUZUKAN

PhoenixDth, bad post.

 

because vfdc got boring /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

I agree that giving move analysis to *compare* characters is meaningless. It should still be done, however, to assess the risk/reward/usefullness under specific situation for the moves. The only reason I had to bring up the topic of lau versus kage was to show that such comparison is meaningless. Since the game is the way it is, and there is no signs of it being changed.

I have to say however, that the Kage discussion is not unique to VFDC. The throw directions discussion, especially, is one that is under heavy debate currently under the Kage section on vfbbs.net. The change proposed is the same as my earlier one, which is move one of his throws to one of the existing directions, thus to eliminate one of the directions, or simply make one of them to take no guaranteed damage. Anyways, here is a sample of the things said by the japanese about Kage.


"Version B Kage will also be a bitch" #559

" is the ultimate bullshit" #561

"Kage players who does all day are lame, fuck them. It's a mystery why Sega made him so strong with the drop move." #566

These statements can be found here

In the midst of all the statements, is the discussion of changing Kage's throw game. Surprisingly, many of the things said are basically what's being said here on VFDC. This is just to illustrate that the sentiments expressed here are similarly expressed in Japan. Although I believe those who bitch on a bbs without any constructive statements are just poor losers (much like the ones who said those things on the Japanese boards), this is just to show that these activities are not unique to VFDC. This is not to say I condone such actions or it's justified. Much like what ktallguy said, just stop whining and either switch to Kage or simply show you are better by beating a Kage player with another character.

I think much of the reason why many people stopped visiting VFDC is not necessarily the shit that goes around. It's simply that it's hard to get a meaningful discussion going strategy wise without it being interrupted or side tracked by someone who do not play on the same level. For example, if I were to pose the question "what should you do after evading Kage's elbow with _____ character." For many reasons that I don't want to go into, I believe I won't be satisfied with the discussion that will follow it. Maybe it's worth it to try it one of these days, but things would be much better if there are character specific sections. Since most of the time questions are not answered by people who play the character, and oftentimes asking a specific question in a thread is too specific to generate a meaningful discussion. I think some of the things that came out of this thread is a good direction for the board to take, even amidst the useless stuff. I just hope that those who are participating in this discussion don't get sidetracked and just not take things so personally since there is never a right answer. Instead of being defensive about a certain issue, if people don't disagree, just let it be.

Much of the times comments or strategies will be stated in an unrealistic context, such as the weaknesses of a move. These moves should be discussed in the context of a real match. This is the one thing that I find most common, which is relying only on numbers. They complement the argument, but do not in itself act as proof or reasons. For example, you shouldn't say "Wolf's screw punch is throw counterable on block!!" because no one would throw if Wolf only does the first hit in a game situation. However, if you said "After you evaded Kage's elbow, there's almost nothing you can do because at best, you are at +7 and also there is the possibility of him going into jumonji," then this is a very constructive statement/point to talk about.

Anyways, so no one would like to comment about the changes they would like to see to Kage's throw game? How about the TFT command change?

 

oh btw myke i called kiwe shang jr not vice versa,

plz read vfdc before pulling some krazy kookaburra wings comments on me, thxmuchograssyass /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

i think i was afk when you said that? /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

The PD! true virtuafighter story

When i first started to play vf, i used lei and got owned terribly
Like every japanese fanboy, lets give the ninja a try - ooooOOOOHHHH whats this, im winning
Being a scrub at the time, winning at all costs felt pretty good. Socal Arcade Infinity cup rolls around, and i elminated a higher ranked kage player using super cheesy shit.

then after that i was like damn, i can win just by doing really cheesy mixups, forcing people into the middle of the ring from the fear of TFT, and lame finishers, kinda boring. So im playing lei again. Because hes the chinese disco king.

this is a true story. Equal skill level turns into higher win pct with kage!!

funny words being passed around the internet
"if you're shang jr. is myke, ice-9 jr . . . . ."

boomerang returns with cries of "urrrrrrrrrrr you're not my father!!"

 

i agree with myke to a point. Kage is rather easy to play, but what I dislike the most is just how he gets a bunch of stuff he doesn't need. He has safe striking options with good payoff from most all situations, very good 'standard' moves (p-string, elbow, sidekick, etc), and one of the most powerful high throw games. So why does he get all kinds of things like 66pkg, DPoD, such a strong backturned game...

I just feel Kage has enough of a paper game to make him strong, but then gets all this fancy shit that he doesn't need, and is just more to worry about when you're facing Kage. None of it is abusable, but all of it does help his game.

 

I remember Alex's Lau... when I get back Alex's Lau will either be on the floor or out of the ring... whichever I feel like at the time =)

heh heh heh... =P and you called Alex PDiddy... that's pretty good stuff =)

As far as Kage, he's strong, but eh... if your good enough you can still win. It's just a difficult game. Wax on, wax off.

 

i dont think evo b lau is fine
i think he's pretty cheap also

i went through that tourney to prove a point that he was. cheap

but from evo b to ft, more characters got "balanced" and kage is pretty much untouched or even stronger.

while most "cheap" (jacky lau) characters got signifigantly weakened in reach, recovery, or float properties, Kage gets the option to use ver C chop, more mobility, and a stronger elbow?

[ QUOTE ]
– The motion for the elbow is changed a little, and the hit detection is now stronger. (Longer reach I think.) Moves like Akira's [Df]+ can no longer go through this move, so you can use it safely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats UP with that!!

lei who you admit is a bitch to play gets his throw game nerfed for almost no reason + now only 45 damage from 55? I mean his new 270 is only worth 60 damage total (direction ). I rather take a direction with easier input, that i can buffer into a dash for 5 points less damage. Still only leaving lei with 2 viable throw threats. But AM2 somehow decided, lets give kage a stronger elbow, and not really touch his already insane throw game? But lets not speak badly of AM2, because they know what they're doing all the time?

VF quest anyone ?!?!?

I mean with kages new FT elbow, why not give jacky a catch throw and kages throw game?
as summah said, kage is the only character in the game that has multiple options for EVERY situation.

Myke you forgot your qantas toothbrush, because something foul is about to come outta your mouth.

Ktallguy, i dont play lau anymore because I cant learn him in 2 weeks like evo b =P. I'll have a lei + jacky waiting for you when you get back though /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif HUI HUI HUI YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!

 

The funpart is that all of this whine started after Otenami 4 with the amount of kages in it and Jin winning it and now everybody and everybodys cat has an opinion. You people who go "Oh I've always thought he was to good!" where are your threads of old? Evo has been out a couple of years and you just suddenly discover balance issues in your game out of the blue regarding Kage as opposed to anybody else? Bs, it's all about Otenami4 and Jin and that's fucked up imo. There are 5 Aoi's qualified for Heroism 2 now, where are the Aoi FT whine threads?

Nobody was crying about kage being overpowered prior to this - infact it was Aki that was in the interragationroom sweating it out in his pyjamas with his followers saying the reason he was in many tourneys was the aki players simply being better. Go and compare Akis VF4x trackrecord against Kages and see what you find. Phoenixdth; I thought you didn't want me to butt in on a Wolf thread as I don't play Wolf? Live like you learn perhaps? I hope it becomes "more fun" if you reinact the spirit of Shang anyways now that he's gone so gl with that (although you're afraid to use namecalling it's never far away right?).

That being said the ones who don't play a character (Kage) in a gameseries shouldn't really talk about it's newest incarnation (FT) which they don't even play. Specially like holy-fuck if you don't intend to listen to those who do holding for your ears like babies. It's hilarious that Ice-9 has for a long time had opinions on that Kage does need a nerf in the chop etc but people paint him out as the evil guy who is blinded by his chars injustice (wtf?).

I can for example imagine that the general nerf to backturned / 8w walking in FT isn't so fun for Kages but I wouldn't know as I don't play FT. I can also imagine Akis more normal weight is a blessing when it comes to TFT's =) Chop being -6 on gaurd (as compared to -5 in evo) makes no difference to other then those who actually play Kage and know what it means to eat 18frame moves.

First things first that needs to be clear; having tft semicircular does matter, + and aren't safe due to the speed they're at (ATE anyone?). Have you ever tried evading a 9k+g? It's the fuck up of choice if you do (yoho / whatever garanteed). Have you ever done a simple elbow into a 3p? Kage is considered crouching and gets staggered so you should try it (I've seen Netrom do shldrms on what apperas to be reaction into Raiders Kage last weekend) if evading the right direction is to hard for you. It's not as he's magically crouching in the end - doing moves that during their exe is crouching is a risk (for instance Brad can do 2p+k>6p launcher on Kage). It's funny how being TC now in FT at 666p is good for Aki cause he can just DTEG and not worry but it's the bs of the century that Kage isn't TC after his 3p 23frame move ^__^

To be objective, I also think his 2p+g throw does to much damage. That's no excuse for getting thrown by it 6times in a row period though. Holy Hell no Batman. Kages two best throw directions are back and down. I think down throw probably should be about 45-50 instead of the 55 it does now. But as I said earlier, Kage hasn't got any good delayed launcher options against those who ETEG the right direction. I'd also like for + to be punch counterable but I think I could whine on some bs for every char of the game (hell even Gohs shldrm can be considered bs in some situations).

P-string is good, yup, but he doesn't have any good elbowspeed punisher and that's all he can do in mC up to -16 as Myke pointed out (but nobody listened to cause he plays Kage - let's not listen to those who actually play the char! Hang 'em in the church!). Regarding his elbow; what would you rather have? A elbow speed knockdown move / combolauncher or that?? Garanteed dmg for president is yesthx =o) Jumanji is a mofo GREAT stance but it's not jailfreesafe. Risk is more then a boardgame people even if you're a ninja.
Biggest complain about ft kage is that his old chop just looks outdated and is ugly. ^__^

DandyJ's new avatar owns us all btw. Realisticly speaking, shouldn't the Ninja be the best char ever in a fightinggame (before Sinanju comes)? That should go without saying really...

/KiwE

 

speaking of your pointless thread,

no one whined when haijin won it
plenty of jackys in that tourney also


i love the narrow field of vision you have
[ QUOTE ]
Phoenixdth; I thought you didn't want me to butt in on a Wolf thread as I don't play Wolf? Live like you learn perhaps?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm if you actually read vfdc, i played kage till i got bored. plz read thx.

Akira was brought into question because he whored dbl palm vs lei in KS2, in which lei has no decent counter against dbl palm on block. But im sorry you werent around on the forums at the time.

then you try to be the lame middle man of reason again, compassionate conservative - radical liberal whatever nonsense you pull then give props dandys avatar?

im sorry your point again was?
btw kages + does a total of 53 damage making it 3 throw directions to deal with. Oh and a massive range catch throw that does 50 also. Plz play kage before you spew again thx and stop playing pencil and paper vf.

 

Wise words that were given to me

"Just because you pick a character at the select screen doesn't mean you play them"

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
DandyJ's new avatar owns us all btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it too...but have you checked out summah's lately?

 

jide come to socal and play 1 year ago? ok thx to you too

 

To those whom I've spoken to in vfhome, this is largely the same things said over again. So maybe you can ignore this post.

My example of evading Kage's elbow is just an example of a topic worthy of discussion. It's not something that I'm stating as a fact. Just for the record, that's all.

This idea of Kage not being able to beat EDTEG is pretty BS. Like those who are saying it's the player that makes a difference, learn and figure out how to play Kage before you whine. How about Pai, Aoi, etc. One of the reasons that no one bitch about Aoi is because it takes alot of yomi to win with Aoi, she is even weaker than Kage dmg wise and punishing EDTEG wise. Guess what, she is a different character so she needs to win a different way. I just want to stress again this discussion was started because Kage's throw game IS BEING CHANGED in the new version (based on what's being said around the net). Otherwise there is no point to even talk about anything being changed. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that if you want to play a certain character, stop the whining and just figure out how to be stronger with whomever you are playing. This also applies to Kage players, don't complain about his inability to take as much damage from punishing EDTEG, just figure out how to use his other strengths that are unique to Kage.

To KiWe: Withi respect to +, I agree with what you have said, this is why it has never been brought up by me. It's also a move which I don't think should be used very often by Kage, so there is no point to talk about it's speed. however, the reason why it's slow is because of it's ducking window. You are ignoring this aspect of the move. Sure it's slow, but this is why it's a damn effective move. A good Kage player wouldn't throw this move out at close range, they would do it from a range where an elbow would whiff, and the move will hit on mC. Otherwise, it would be used in the middle of a high or string. The slow speed of the move is the strength of it. Seriously, play Kage some more before you talk about him.

To Myke: Page 61 of FT master guide. Read the changed point for his elbow. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I would also advice the "Kage is too strong" spam be stopped. There is really no point for that kind of stuff. Anyways, back to the initial topic. What I'm saying is basically this.

1) The HCB command change is too little of a change to be fair, thus one of his other throw directions should be made to not take guaranteed dmg.
2) If Kage is to still have 4 guaranteed dmg directions, then TFT should be 270. Since other character's strongest throws are 270, it is only fair and logical.

Really, the command change aspect is moot imo. A good player would be able to do these motions on command. It's only a matter of uniformity, since for characters with the most throw directions (Aoi, Goh, Kage, Wolf, Jeffry, etc..), the strongest throws are 270. Kage is the exception in this case. There are many other reasons why the amount of throws directions matter in a match situation. For example, consider this situation.

Imagine you are in a match up against Kage, and your life is at 25 pts. Kage is at 5 health. You just had an elbow blocked, is Kage a threat throw wise? Now in the same situation, you are in a match up against Wolf, same situation. Is Wolf more threatening throw wise? Since in this situation, the dmg of the throws do not matter. So is it consistent with Kage's class the amount of threat he poses throw wise? This is not something to say which character is better. This is just an example of how such things would come into effect in a real match. The purpose of this discussion is not even for people to agree or disagree, it's so things like this would be uncovered and considered. Because from people talking about things like this, there are things to be learned. It doesn't matter if you think Kage's throws are good or bad, you are entitled to you opinion, but if you want to state your opinion, give something constructive to talk about.

If you are unable to see the reason why the example given above is significant, then simply refrain from posting in this thread and move on to another.

 

Let's get one thing straight....

I said "Kage can fight in very flexible conditions".

1st thing 1st, I do not blame PD for misquoting me. Hey shit happens..misunderstandings takes place on a daily basis, that's fine. I can live with it. Minor thing that I don't really bother with. Worst things have happened to me and I survived.

Just for clarification's sake, ppl here should know I have a deep love (sounds disturbing, I KNOW) for using Kage. I think you of all, know it best because the last time I played you, I used Jacky what? 3 times? Akira, zero times? It was Kage Kage Kage and Kage.
Even b4 u flew off, I was playing Kage vs Kage against you. At the arcade, I play heaps of kage in evo. At danny's place, Kage kage kage (and wolf lol).

And my two mains are Jacky and Akira. For clarification's sake, everyone that has played me wonders why I don't play Jacky in gatherings or at the arcade. Well, I do! Just not to the extent in comparison to using Kage n wolf.

So in the event anyone thinks that I am whinging against Kage...plz, think differently.

Even in our weekly meetings, the topic of Kage gets brought up so often it is amazing. I suppose in a sense, Kage is quite fun to play and discuss about. (In reality, I think everyone characters falls into the same category; fun and amazing). Of coz, depending on how the players choose to control Kage or another character, that's an entirely different story.

Now, whenever someone asks me of my opinion, I will always say the same thing.

"Kage is strong, but not godly. He can fight in very flexible situations..and his strengths n weaknesses can vary depending on where n what stage you are at."

Oh bullocks, Myke knows my stance on this.~

Fook mi