Knowledge versus talent.

Hey guys I'm just wondering what you all think to knowledge versus talent?

I just realised that I'm actually quite knowledgeable of the games that I play and maybe that allows me an edge on my opponents who are not as read up on the game as I am.

An example would be frame trapping. Frame trapping obviously comes from knowing the frame data and applying your knowledge correctly to stuff out any unwanted abare tactics.

Learning the game i.e reading up on frames, combos, hitbox related stuff and all that character specific stuff is all well and good but I think that knowledge can only take you a limited distance.

Applying knowledge seems to be the biggest downfall for me. It leads to me getting very frustrated in fighting games because I do know what should and should not work and therefore know what is absolute shit when I see it.

I'm talking talent. Reaction times. Dexterity. A sense of calm during tense moments. The natural ability to adapt to what is going on. The natural ability to make correct guesses and even the ability to perhaps predict something which to most would be "unpredictable".

I realise that I can win quite a bit on VF but only now am I starting to believe that it is only because of my knowledge of the game and the "what beats what" mindset which I have acquired by learning frames and from trial and error playing the game.

I have been playing alot of Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike lately and I have actually played it for maybe 4 years on and off now. I am a bit knowledgeable in that game too - although I must admit it is actually quite hard to learn anything by reading up on that game. You can find character specific combos and the likes but you will struggle to find accurate frame data which isn't in Japanese or a comprehensive list of "what beats what" - I've played that game enough to now conclude that the hitboxes are particularly random and it's hard to say what beats what; especially jump in attacks.

I get ragged about when playing 3s. It's not even funny. I've played so much 3s that I should be playing at a Japanese level of play. When I play 3rd strike the players there believe I am new to fighting games and talk to me as if I am some sort of scrub.

In summary what I think is that playing 3rd Strike extensively has been a rude awakening for me and maybe I am not as good at fighting games as I would like to think I am as when it comes down to me not being in my comfort zone I simply crumble.

What is your view on knowledge versus talent in fighting games - and do you think extensive play can lead to tournament level skill level or do you believe that alot of it is innate?

 

I guess the really great players excell in both. Things like dexterity and your approach to the game can always be improved though. Possibly even reactions times as well.

 

Knowledge without skill to apply it is mostly useless.
Skill without knowing what to do is useless.

I think talent manifests mainly by learning fast, for one reason or another. This means that you can overcome lack of talent by hard work. I know I am a slow learner.

 

It's the complete opposite, talent can only take you a limited distance, this has been proven in professional sports over and over again.

Talent can fast track you to skill and knowledge, but you won't get further without those.

Also, you're making a huge error in thinking of "knowledge" as just the paperwork, ie reading frames, learning combos and so on. Knowledge is so much more. Like learning pattern recognition in opponents, that's not something you really read up on, it's something you learn while playing, in the beginning it might take days/months/week/years to recognize player patterns, when you fully developed this skill it might just take one round.

 

A part of this question can be easily answered by the quote myke selected for 'your say' by Yosuke:

He played the game A LOT, and he is probably gifted, but he still played VF like it was work, with a serious approach and with method. Hazz from what I hear you are a little bit too whiny for your own good, you seem to have this 'ITS NOT FAIR' approach that drags you down.

It seems to me you are impaired by your own approach, like somebody said, you expect the game to play by your rule, rather than the other way around.

 

After playing a lot of SF4 I feel that VF is the game where knowledge can help you the most.

In SF, combos (I'm using SF4 as an example) means nothing if you cant pull of 1-frame links and those are hard. In VF, combos are much easier and a matter of knowledge rather than strict timing (more important to actually know which combo to use, input is often simple with huge input buffer).

I also feel that the biggest difference between SF and VF is that in VF application of knowledge is much easier.
If I know that elbow beats low punch in a certain situation I can just input f+P or throw.
On the other hand, stopping jump-ins in SF4 is almost impossible, even thought the jumps are really slow and floaty.

Even though I KNOW what to do in SF4, I cannot actually do it in a real match.

 

This is what I'm talking about. VF is probably the most consistent FG in terms of what beats what - there are quite a few hitbox issues but this is easily overlooked as every FG has these issues; they just don't ruin the fundamentals of VF as in certain other games.

You KNOW in VF that (blocked) -> 14f mid will beat a low punch and it does so without relying on range issues. The only time will win in this situation is either due to lag or the person performing the elbow being too slow.

However what I am getting at is that this mentality scarcely applies to other FG's and it can be very stressful (for me atleast) not actually knowing what beats what as situations in other FG's can be much more ambiguous.

 

I'd like to add something else to that as well. Physical ability, or whatever you would like call it.

In Street Fighter, I know how to do a shoryuken. I know that I can beat a jump in with a shoryuken, but guess what, most of my opponents get free jump ins on me all the time because I have slow reflexes and execution. Many people in high level play can uppercut a jump in on reaction. I cannot do it consistently, and that will always leave me a few steps behind.

So yeah, I have the knowledge, but not the physical ability in this area. That physical ability is not necessarily talent though.

People develop their joystick control skills through hard work and practice. You can even train things like reaction time through certain exercises. Many guys attribute the reaction speed of players and stuff like that to talent, and in some cases it is, but in others it's trained up like athletes. This training is not necessarily conscious either. A lot of time, people with great execution skills happen to have had years of piano training or something else that trains up finger dexterity. I think this is a form of knowledge too, and should not be confused with talent.

I too have played 3S since release, and I've played VF since VF1. However, I'm not a top player, and my lack of knowledge in some areas is shocking. I know guys who started playing a few years ago who can wipe the floor with me, and I don't think it's talent. I just believe they looked harder than I did for their answers and were rewarded for it. You can go for years and years repeating the same mistakes if you don't realise them. Knowledge is not equal to number of hours played if you're just going through the motions and not learning much.

 

Hopefully the ability to upload replays to youtube function on 3sOE will help me considerably.

I will analyse my games as if I am some sort of chess grandmaster brushing up for a big tournament.

Hopefully looking at replays of me playing 3s will help me to identify where I slip up or atleast what I could do better.

I still think the big issue for me about 3s is it really is hard to pin point what can beat what. Even playing for a considerable amount of time I still find myself with fuzzy vision.

 

The more stuff I play, I realize how different the ideals are in each fighting game. Naturally some games are more forgiving than others.

When you look at the damage outputs and how the risk/reward works, I would suggest VF5 is a much more forgiving game in comparison to other games - the least unforgiving aspect is Ringouts, but those stages are HUGE.

BR gets kinda random - dragging your opponent to a wall can almost guarantee a win, but theres also stuff like magic 4s, crazy crush moves, and overall moves with gdlk properties. And some of the matchups are just nasty. Some characters have NO WAY to punish some stuff, ex. Lee can do his launching mid mid ws 2, 3 on Lili for free with no worries, cept if the wall prevents her from being pushbacked. It's -14, so most characters SHOULD be able to punish this with something that gets fair damage and knocks down (like jacky 3ppp, blaze 46ppk etc.)

3S to me is very hard to compare to other games for me. My friend claims it's similar to VF, in the sense that there's always guessing involved. The mid, low, throw mix-up is there, and each guess can be equally rewarding. Then there's other forms of guessing too. When an opponent jumps you gotta figure out if they are empty jumping looking to parry or if they are attacking. you will see people try many ways of dealing with jump-ins.
There's also very strong footsies in this game. Shoto's low forward has rediculous range. I find myself walking backwards thinking I'm safe but I still get tagged.
I would say the damage is fair, but i think ken's jab dpx2 is a bit much, and of course chun's SA2. Hugo's damage is pretty rediculous, but he's a grappler - a Hugo on point with his parry guesses is pretty dangerous. So it's very important to learn matchups like any other SF. There's a ton of matchup specific stuff in this game.
Execution is crucial in this game, if you can't do something, there's really no forgiveness. You have to be able to hit confirm everything.

But I mention all this because its cool how each game gives you a different experience, so if you're kinda fed up a specific aspect of one game, you can just jump ship 'till your fed up with the next lol.

 

Surprised you didn't mention MVC3. That game is so ridiculous with its risk/reward. One missed guess and you will probably lose a character, its insane! I personally don't like that, it makes matches too short in actual play time, and very frustrating sometimes, comboing in the game isn't too hard at least, but its still a pain occationally. The worst part is MVC3 gets EXTREMELY chaotic with all the assists and such, with people using near unblockables higher up in the skill levels too, when coupled with the whole one mistake lose a character thing, the game just becomes a bit too ridiculous. X-Factor is also very retarded. It pretty much makes the first 3/4ths of the match meaningless because its so easy to make a come back, and makes any sort of come back itself pretty lame.

Blazblue I think is nearly perfect on the other hand for a 2D game. The combos can get long but characters have pretty high HP, still though they can take AWHILE to finish, which makes things a bit dull compared to VF. The characters though are EASILY the best characters of any 2D game I have ever played, in terms of creativity and interesting gameplay. Seriously it makes street fighter look retarded (which is kinda is, seriously all they have is projectile, air tricks,uppercuts, and across screen moves like chicken wing), every character in street fighter feels extremely similar.

MK9 looks pretty good, I haven't played it but watched it a lot during EVO. The combo breaker system is nice and makes sure there are only a few long combos in a match which I like. The game it self seems quite fast pace and pretty great. I might pick it up soon just to give it a run.

I got tekken recently, but honestly it just seems like a toned down VF, with longer juggles. I feel like it also focuses way more on long range game than VF, and a lot less on short range. The characters that do have complicated short range game tend to be kind of meh in comparison to some VF chars and lower in tier compared to other tekken chars. I haven't played that much of it so correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I've seen so far. The wacky evade system and make the game a bit annoying too, I feel like its a lot less reliable. Its pretty fun though still, except the entire EVO finals being Law vs Bobs (mostly bobs) make me not want to play it anymore knowing thats where the game is ends up.

Honestly, with the VF scene not existing locally (I never EVER EVER see local tournaments for it), I want to move on to another fighting game but most just aren't as good as VF . The only one I haven't tried is MK9 and it does look pretty good maybe that will satisfy me.

 

I like what your saying but in 3S do you really wat to play a game where your guessing for every lil thing? This is what VF stepped away from by wanting you to KNOW whats going on. In Vanilla 3 The shoto's CR. Med kick was a anti-air. All jumping attacks went over it and you got plugged everytime into super. Whats sad is the amount of Damage Hugo does and you can't play keep away with him. He's a god in 3S if you get his shit together right. I love fighter's but no that online has become a integral part to gaming.. You see the ugly side of play to win way to often.

 

True, it shouldn't be ALL about guessing, which is why I didnt immediately accept the changes in latest versions of VF5. However for me VF play is mostly about minimizing the different options that opponent has, while at the same time keeping them guessing about my own offense. This instead of grinding pixels with the same moves used over and over like I felt in tekken and SF4. VF is just so much more versatile in a given situation. 2D game characters seem to have like one move in total as an overhead which is not versatile in my books..

Online sucking donkey balls in most games and the death of local VF made me stop playing fighting games almost completely.

 

First my two cents on the knowledge vs talent.

superior knowledge always wins. Even if your opponent is extremely talented, knowledge of his weaknesses and yours and knowledge of the game can help you construct a winning strategy.

Even if your opponent has more physicality than you do, that is he's faster, more dexterity, if you have more knowledge of the game, and you know(learn) his weaknesses and you understand your own weaknesses as said in the movie Red Belt, there is always a way to overcome.

With the right amount of knowledge advantage over your opponent the weak can overcome the strong, the slow can overcome the fast.

But its not just having the knowledge, its knowing how and when
to apply the knowledge (I call this Wisdom) And in every case
the wiser fighter will win. You cannot beat wisdom under any circumstance.

@Sharp7 I hear you on scarecity of VF scene and how the other similar games just don't add up. And I really reticent to open up the can of worms, but because I am a virtua fighter fanatic, and fanboy I think I have the right to make this point. I've been playing the UFC fighting combat simulation games for a couple of years now (off and on). Once I got over trying to compare them to VF and realized what was going on, I've found that these UFC fighting games are "extremely deep"
and fighting approaches/styles impact strategy win/lose opportunities etc.

The UFC games are every bit as rewarding as learning and playing VF (just in different ways) in these UFC games use striking strategies vs clinching stategies vs grappling strategies vs ground games vs long range, short range, throws,vs stamina management etc.

I've got thousands (literally) of hours invested in Virtua Fighter and learning frames, combos, sequences, setups, reversals, sabaki's paper-rock-scissor scenarios etc. I absolutely worship virtua fighter, but I'm telling you and all
my VF buddies These UFC fighting games (once you give them a real chance) have a great deal to offer our community. They are as deep as VF just in a different direction, they are easy to play, but hard to master.

But I guess for you Sharp7 the reason I'm bringing the UFC games up is they require Knowledge, Talent and they have a fucking huge Community of fighters. These games sell in the millions, There is enough local action and online action to keep you fighting for decades.

So, If you can't make, find, or force a VF community locally, and you're tired of Quest mode and the autoerotica in the dojo,
I highly recommend the UFC 2009/2010, and the upcoming supremacy MMA games. IMHO these games are the perfect, I mean perfect complement to Virtua Fighter

 

Right on Manji! Seriously i quit SF4 just for that fact. What i like is there are options in VF that allow you to either, Reverse the situation (Evade,Sabaki) or Be on par with the situation(Block) where you at a disadvantage. thats what i love the most unlike Streetfighter where Ryu and ken(Shotos') have a uppercut that can free you up into supers whether your crouchinng or standing. Charge characters don't stand a chance (Like my Guile) from cross-up aerial threats if not charged. (Example after guarding a jumping attack and the opponent has the option to poke into a throw or delay into another poke.)

I just don't like fighthing uphill battles because of bullshit match up discrepancies. I not running to pick a upper tier characters just to match up against somebody with op character who clearly knows it.

 

I agree completely, SF and many other 2D games just don't have many options, some characters feel like they can't even do anything at some points (like the charge character example you gave). Its pretty disappointing. It gets old SO FAST too, because your using the same very few moves in the same very few situations. Virtua fighter has more ways to wake up than most games do at disadvanage... and that's pretty sad.

@Po- Hmm... I'll have to try the MMA games then. I am a MMA fan and practice BJJ myself so I should probably find it at least amusing. The ground game with the swirling of the joysticks seems annoying though but you make the game sound interesting enough to play regardless. I don't recall seeing any local tournaments for it though, I dunno if its considered competitive but maybe I'm just not looking really.


About knowledge vs talent. I feel like games should have INTUITIVE moves. for example, tekken's evade system is strange because some moves that appear linear can still hit, while in VF its pretty obvious when a move is circular. Additionally I remember in original SF stuff just didn't work right. Fei Long's ultra didn't connect on all hits if they were slightly in the air, and sometimes it would just bullshit around, same with Vega's ultra. Moves should be INTUITIVE, you should be able to tell "Oh thats a mid, thats a low, thats a high" just by seeing it once or twice. It shouldn't require strange timing and hyper specific knowledge to pull off a move. VF usually does that but sometimes its funky hitbox messes things up. For example 2p misses during kage's attack stance (forget the name, can never remember asian names sorry), as well as one of lei fei's stances, I don't know if this is intentional (I doubt it considering R and subsequent versions fixed it), but its really frustrating. For a pro these things don't really matter because they know very well what works, but when your new or a medium level player these things are terrible. Similarly for example, basic combos in mvc2 were kind of random, but in mvc3 90% of basic combos were just light-medium-heavy-air-light-medium-heavy-air(slam) or switch to team mate to continue combo. That I thought was great!

Basically, I think in making a fighting game one should minimize the knowledge required to play it well, but maximize the number of viable options and complex flow charts. These tend to oppose each other thus a good balance is needed, and I think VF has that good balance.

 

I played a very strong goh recently. I felt his skill was better. Movement wise yomi wise. Howver i was able to win by a little due to knowledge. Basically op cl combos. I dont play as much as ppl think but most of my improvements i feel were from studying vf. Im. Able to beat ppl who have played longer and more often but some ppl i feel dont improve due to lack of knowledge and how to correct their mistakes.however i can give another example i know someone who doesnt main goh but may not know as much as i do but his skill level is better so i lose. Theres alot of akira that space well and have great inputs, but very rare u find ano akira that is a complete package with knowledge. Me personally feel knowledge has helpd me in vf than my skill.

 

I know this thread is a couple of weeks old but I have to speak up on the MMA games.

MMA games are real fun until you get good enough to the point where no one wants to play you, and since every MMA game out there allows you to choose your fights AND see your opponet's record, your SOL unless you join a league. There is always a game-breaking glitch that never gets fixed in every single MMA game also. The communities are more drama-filled than DOA Central as well. I have played both UFC games and EA MMA for a long time. Take advice from this rattled MMA game vet and keep away from these games, you wont miss out on anything.