lack of speed & range ?

Hello, i'm just a new french player on xbox360, just began to see how was the live 2 days ago, and, as you may guess, i'm getting crushed, often to the times i just have time enough to fall on the floor 3 times and taking 6 hits ^^

(where are the beginners btw /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif)
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ok my question is :

saw a lot of pai / lion / brad / jacky / lei, who are a lot quicker than go. and it seems goh lacks really quickness & range & pressure option.

from what i see, i depend on some short opening moves (1 or 2 hits at most) like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, in order to put some pressure, then use the combo starter time to time
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif , /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif , /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (ch). Which never hit because the other guy is always hitting a quick move whether he already took a pound or not. And them being quicker, i usually end dead /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

I'm used to the soulcalibur way even with astaroth, where i made the other guy cautious about approaching, & make him have to protect, but here i just see fully aggressive people & the only way i can cope is doing my punches, which is a bit boring.

And i'm almost never able because of that, to use throw, and goh is a throw character.

So i'd like to know your way to put pressure on quick players to the points they are going to really be on guard. I read the guides here though, but not enough /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

btw, about using sabakis, it's really too random & attack class specific to be usefull unless you know your opponent, i mean the guy behind

thank you for any help or even thoughts about that - maybe i should drop goh to take an easier char

 

I think you're failing to see some of the basics of the game, if you've played the AI a lot you'll have noticed many of the tactics you may have developed will not work online.

Basically, use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to get his stuff started. Most characters have some fancy move or other that they can chain from, Goh doesn't. He has tools for practically every situation though, but as long as those situations don't occur, keep it simple, Goh's one-two strikes do surprising amounts of damage and you can easily wear an opponent down with them. Note: never use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif unless you really know what you're doing, the second punch has horrible stats.

The bare bone basic game according to Vortigar:
Single /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif gives advantage, follow up with moderately fast moves on hit (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif).

On a counterhit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif you can do practically any launcher, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a particularly powerful option here. If they really are mashers they'll walk right into a counterhit, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(MC)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif does a horrible dose of damage, especially for such a simple combo.

Once they start blocking and dodging the game really begins and you can start mixing in throws. True mashers simply can not be thrown, so don't try it, you'll only eat damage. Use low punch to break up their strats and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to make them wary of trying low punches.

Further reading:
Tactics: (I don't advise using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif too much though.)
http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/doku.php?id=vf5:goh:black_book_strategy
Moves: (Figure out which moves allow what follow-ups.)
http://virtuafighter.com/commands/index.php?ver=5c&chara=goh

 

thank you for ypour help, i'll look for that tonight, i may catch the idea sooner or later /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
you're right that i'm too used with the computer /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

another question though, is there a good opening move ? for now it seems better for me to guard at the beginning & react accordingly

 

I'm in the same situation as you, Ive been beating the AI to death but I get reaved online. I do know a good opening move or two though.

Start off with a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Its a nice semi quick kick that I've found to be a good interruption move. From there you can do your /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, then whatever you want.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is another good one as its a low hit and most of the time you can completely duck their first attack. Since its low, keep holding down and hit your /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and nail them with that shoulder.

Then of course you can always back dash twice and if they dont pursue, they wait till they do and get them with a nice /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to which you can start some rather nasty combos or ground grabs if they don't tech roll, and if you ask me thats kind of a difficult move to tech from.

Anyway, thats all I got.

 

I found this website pretty helpfull. Found it in someones signature here.

what about low throws after a stomach crumple. They are escapable I guess but against a masher I'm sure you can pull off a couple of those. It can lead up to 88 damage points, like the one below.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (stomach crumple) > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

Or is that not a good idea? I'm not at all an experienced goh player so.

 

I think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif gives the most damage out (potentially) from tsukami hold. You can add a light pounce attack [/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif] as soon as they hit the ground. I'm not sure if its guaranteed but they would have to rise up really quick for it to miss.

Of course experienced players wont let you grab them from crumple or even be pushed around in that direction once in tsukami for that matter. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif does 60 damage while /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif do 65.

you're right about experienced players not allowing themselves to be handled that way tough. But if your opponent doesn't know how to escape fast enough I think you should take advantage of that.

ps. the 88 point damage in my previous post includes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

 

Tsukami works well for me. I use it a lot to interrupt combos and toss people away from me, or I use it to toss them out of the ring when they have me backed up against an edge.

 

Anyone who keeps attacking can almost always be punished with low punch. I always say this but I think it's true. The only way I know how to deal with string after string is just low punch them out of it and try to turn the tide of the fight to me. I use Akira and he also has to rely on low punch to stop the canned-string mashing. It's is true that you can't throw a masher, you have to counter them. If they keep attacking, your throw will clash or probably get interrupted by their mashing so don't try to throw them until you can train them to fear low punch and block. Then throw one out, after they are conditioned to block it, then stand and throw. Works pretty good on all but the most determined mashers who just won't block ever.

 

But itself yes but if you add in the down attack afterward it brings it to 72.

 

if you add the down attack to the others it will be 77

 

Indeed, one of Goh's weakness is his poor (relatively-speaking) range game. There are only a few moves to attack from a distance. The most obvious is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, but try not to be predictable with it, as it is a linear attack (can be evade both sides). Same goes with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

You may also try using OM P once in a while to catch them off guard.

At times, I even go for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif just to close the gap. However, in serious games, you can also achieve this with crouch-dashing forward.

I haven't updated the site recently as I have been experimenting with a few characters as well, and I don't have the game for the X360 yet (coming out 6th Dec 07 in my region /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif ), but I will be sure to update it when it arrives.

A good news is that in version C (Xbox360 VF5), Goh has been strengthened just a little. Some of the throws (the ones hardly escaped) from the Tsukami-grab now deals slightly more damage! (5-10 points extra). While not much, its still better than getting nerfed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

instead of going for the tsukami on the stomach crumple i just go 3p+k+g and do a throw from there. i feel its safer cus when i do it it works everytime and i rarely rarely see an escape out of it. OR from that stomack crumple u can launch sort of with 4p+k or whatever is that one that charges but dont charge it. Then juggle. Im not the best but hes the guy Ive been using the most since i bought the game a few days ago.

-j

 

The low-throw after a stomach crumble is a good option for opponents who don't input throw escapes, or are new to the game.

However, as time passes by and players get more used to the game, they will start using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif after being stomach-crumpled to escape both Goh's low throws.

To improve your game, you may wish to explore the option of going for guaranteed damage instead ( check the combos under Tsukikage Combos for an idea what kind of followups are possible)

 

Great stuff in this topic but I'd like to add a question to what has already been discussed. The question is how does Goh with his lack of quick mid-low mix-up deal with 'machi' or keep-away tactics employed by certain characters? I find closing the distance of Jacky, Lion, and Kage rather difficult if they choose to play keep-away style. Also, does any experienced Goh user have any insight on how to rush down someone as Goh?

Keep the great work everyone.

 

thanks drift silencer for the tips man. Quick question, is it possible to input both 3 and 2 p+k+g so one can avoid both tsukami and crouch grab at the same time?

thanks for the link too i shall practice these combos. haha. Im still debating if i should change characters because i like so many of the other characters but goh is so fun to play!!!!

-J

 

No problems, I am still learning as well /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Yes, it is most definitely possible to input both /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif directions quickly to escape both options.

This also applies to standing throws. For example, Goh has throws that end in 5 different directions (neutral, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif). Thus, technically speaking if your opponent can input all 5 directions in time, they would be able to escape all throw options.

Please note that backthrows cannot be escaped, nor his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif (in-escapable in VF5, but escapable in VF4), as well as his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, which the latter two are classed as catch-throws.

Also, Tsukami-grab throws are escaped differently to standard throws as well.

 

hey boxedwishes, im not good with goh but i find that once i get the enemy used to blocking a lot, il start throwing those grab on hit type stuff on them. like the low kick into a leg takedown or roundhouse into grab and the 66 elbow throw on counter hit too. this way theyl block the kick, then on guard u do the throw. its hard to do but ive done it a bunch of times and really threw them off guard!

another thing ive found that made ppl freeze up on me is the forward roll haha. roll right up to them and throw!
-J

 

i'v been playin goh for a long time and i havent found a better goh then mine yet lol... at any rate going for low throws after a cruble is great and all but experienced players will escape the low throw just about every time. reason is when your in a crumble the only option your really have is to input low throw escapes. same for ground throw.. so after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif i would do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif>/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. its not as much damage but it is garenteed.

as far as rushing ppl down with goh. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is good couse it goes under highs. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will crouch dash into the shoulder (which can be used to string some combos on the heavier chars ei: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif>/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif)

oh and dont forget about sibaki's either which can be very damaging for your opp if he eats one

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is for elbows and some mid punches

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is for knees

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is for mid kicks much like gohs/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for all high and mid punches

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for all low punches ie /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.


the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif put your opp in gut crumple so follow up with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif./forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is great agains akira's and jackies becouse they tend to throw alot of elbows to start their mix ups and you can follow up with a garenteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif and into goh's backturned game.

 

good stuff mcmoney and drift.

question about inputting more than one throw escape. does that mean you have to press 2p+g, 3p+g, 4,p+g etc, or does that mean you basicly rotate your stick and then press p+g?