Lau's double palm?

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Guest, Nov 15, 1999.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm having problems doing Lau's double palm...need help. Also, I just started playing a couple of months ago...so have one question? Are all the charaters pretty well balanced? Currently I'm workin on Lau and Jacky...but I really would like be good with Shun, but there is no Step 1 yet, and he is a hard character for me to be offensive oriented with. I'm open to suggestions...Thankz!
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There are several moves in VF3tb that require making rapid joystick movements. Lau's double palm is one of those moves. For me to make it work, I find I have to tap b,f,f very, very quickly (I don't know how else to describe it), tapping the Punch button precisely with the last "f" joystick movement. This all has to be done smoothly and rapidly. The key is practice. If you have the DC, the training mode should tell you if you are making the inputs cleanly or not. Also, vs a real opponent, even if you make the inputs correctly, the move may not come out because you are attacked by an opponent while making the inputs or while your move is "executing" (coming out). In other words, the opponent's move may "execute" (come out) quicker than the double palm. For instance, all other things being equal, an enemy punch will easily beat the double palm (as will many other moves). All VF3 moves take some amount of execution time. Each move has its own execution rate, typically measured in "frames" (1/60 of a second). The double palm takes 15 frames to execute, beginning the moment you've inputted b,f,f+P. Be careful in using it; if it is blocked, your opponent gains a lot of extra time in which to input his moves (this is called an "advantage" -- like execution rates, different moves give different advantages upon their completion).

    The characters in VF3tb are well-balanced in the sense that if you learn how to play any one of them, it will be essentially as good as having learned any of the other characters. There are always arguments as to which character is the "strongest," but I think the differences are minimal. Tournaments have been won by Taka players, Aoi players, and Lion players (just to name three characters that seem to be considered by many as weaker than others). However, the ease of learning how to play a character well, is not in my opinion, balanced. The learning curve for each character varies greatly. I believe Lau is too hard for the average beginner to take on. I think Sarah or Pai make for better choices. For one thing, their moves seem to me to be easier to get to come out on a consistent basis. Lau has other tough moves besides the double palm.

    Good luck, Imashroom
     
  3. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Read my document in Shoshinnsha No Dojo in War City about choosing characters. I basically make the point that eventually, all characters are of practically equal strength, but at the Step 1 and 2 level some characters are weaker than others.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Imashroom misses the point of Lau's doublepalm. All things being equal, doublepalm will always beat enemy's punch.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Anonymous wrote ::Imashroom misses the point of Lau's doublepalm. All things being equal, doublepalm will always beat enemy's punch.::
    Well, I've been wrong before, as have others who have posted at this site. No shame in that. That's why my daughter gave me my handle; it's that old joke about being in the dark and thriving anyway like a mushroom. That's how she sees her dad. But the other old joke/pun is that it makes me a fungi to be with. Any how, I am always anxious to learn. So I would appreciate your helping me to gain the understanding I am missing. If a punch takes anywhere from 10 to 14 frames to execute (depending on character), and the double palm takes 15 frames to execute, not to mention the amount of time it takes to input b,b,f+P as opposed to a simple press of P (or simultaneous F+P), how does the double palm beat the punch every time, all other things being equal? Where did I go wrong in my reasoning? BTW, do you have a handle? It's nice to have some idea who's administering the reprimand.

    Looking forward humbly to a reply, Imashroom
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    shroom, for someone who proclaims himself to be a long-time part of the "vf community" it would be nice if we knew YOUR name, where you play, who you play, if you've been in any tournaments, etc etc. you might gain some credibility in the minds of some of the people here...

    regarding the palm vs. punch...it just does. not everything is as cut and dried in vf. the dynamics of the animation plays a part. kickflips can beat fast punchs, akira's DE can beat fast punches (emphasis on can). and it goes the same way when it comes to counterattacks. on paper, pai's double swallow kicks or wolf's ff+K+G indicate loads of time to attack, so you think ANY move within that time will always work. of course, it doesn't always, because of the way the animation of the recovering move and the animation of the counterattacking move and the dynamics of hit detection all combine.
     
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    About your name....

    To imashroom:
    Phew, glad you cleared the nature of your handle up :) I actually thought it was a drug reference. No offense.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What are your suggestions then?

    Since Lau is weaker at Step 1 as you call it, and Step 2 and 3 are not out yet, what should I keep practicing? My practices mostly are made up of combos attached to his P, P, P, and so on. One thing I'm mainly trying to come up with is to attack my opponent high, mid and low...P,P,P,D+K/P,P,P,K,K/df+P,P,P,P,D+K/df,df+P,K+P,P,P,D+K, etc. I've been trying to learn harder moves like the double palm...but then you have people that state it is to slow, then another say it is not, So which is it? Should I add this to my arsenal and dare try on any opponent that I encounter? Reply is greatfully appreciated from anyone...Thankz
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: About your name....

    ::shroom, for someone who proclaims himself to be a long-time part of the "vf community" it would be nice if we knew YOUR name, where you play, who you play, if you've been in any tournaments, etc etc. you might gain some credibility in the minds of some of the people here...::

    Rich, I have a different mind-set than you do. I'm not seeking credibility. I seek knowledge, happiness, and balance. I have different cultural references than you appear to. I grew up in a family that valued humility and cooperation. Competition to be a winner, including tournament participation, is not something I currently value. I feel good when I help others, not when I beat them. This is the spirit of martial arts as well, at least that which I've been exposed to. I am sorry you feel the need for so much more information about me, which is unusual, since not too many other posters get questioned about who they are. My request for a handle from the anonymous responder was more to get a "sense" of consistent identity from the poster, not his/her/its actual identity. Since he/she/it was disagreeing directly with me, I think it only proper that he/she/it give some sort of name with his/her/its post, so as to separate him/her/it from other anonymous posters. Ice-9 made the point a long time ago, when he confronted your doppelganger (remember Rich?) and asked him/her/it to use a consistent handle for the same reasons I made my request. I also note that for some reason, you don't like to "sign" your posts consistently...
    But one important reason I remain relatively reticent about myself, is that I'm trying to teach my daughter the dangers of giving too much information about herself on the internet. I wouldn't be a role model for her if I did otherwise; instead, I'd be a hypocrite. BTW, she reads all this stuff... And much of what I say about beginners comes from observing her and her friends trying to learn VF3. I still believe, and respectfully disagree with ice-9, that Lau is too hard for beginners. Again, based on my personal observations, not on canonical law. Neither of us is right or wrong; we just have different perspectives.
    I will say this much about my experiences -- I've seen most of the great players play.

    ::regarding the palm vs. punch...it just does. not everything is as cut and dried in vf. the dynamics of the animation plays a part. kickflips can beat fast punchs, akira's DE can beat fast punches (emphasis on can).::

    Rich, I didn't say that it wasn't true that a double palm CAN (emphasis as you say on can) beat a punch. My position is that all other things being equal, the punch wins. And the anonymous responder (before you that is) made an absolute statement, that the double palm ALWAYS beats a punch, all things being equal.
    I am still not convinced, but I do respect your Lau knowledge.

    :: and it goes the same way when it comes to counterattacks. on paper, pai's double swallow kicks or wolf's ff+K+G indicate loads of time to attack, so you think ANY move within that time will always work. of course, it doesn't always, because of the way the animation of the recovering move and the animation of the counterattacking move and the dynamics of hit detection all combine.::

    I wasn't referring to counterattacks (that wouldn't be all things being equal). Also, as you point out animation plays a role. Swallow kicks, kickflips, Wolf's ffK+G do things like leave the ground and use the feet to attack. Lau's double palm and an enemy punch are straightforward "land-based" hand attacks. I still think I'm right about which wins, but no one has come to my defense, so maybe I'm wrong.
    And let's not forget, my original reason for my punch vs double palm statement was to help the original poster understand another possible reason why he wasn't able to complete a double palm.
    Imashroom
     
  10. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: About your name....

    If Lau and the opponent are right next to each other, and the double palm and single punch was done at the same time, the single punch will win out. However, if there is a range involved, as long as the double palm animation comes out the punch should never interrupt the double palm.

    The double palm IS a good move, especially against button mashers or those that like to attack a lot. However, as with all powerful moves in VF, having the double palm blocked leaves Lau at a serious disadvantage. Therefore, there is some skill in using this move correctly. It is, for example, an excellent round starter.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: About your name....

    i don't feel any need to know you. i do not view you as anyone worth taking seriously. you are nothing but words on a screen to me.

    my ip # is signature enough.

    almost five years of net.VF'ing...has anyone ever been hurt by at letting their name known? general location? even the character they play? please. give me a break.

    there are no absolutes in vf (and yes, i see contradiction in my statement there). never have been. there are always exceptions; but IN GENERAL, the palm will usually beat the punch.

    you must be a lawyer or professor. understand that this is a game, not a law journal. don't be so fucking concerned with exact, proper wording.

    you see everything in pitch black and blinding white, and there seems to be no shades of grey in the way you think. it's a bit absurd.
     
  12. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Re: What are your suggestions then?

    The beginnings of your Lau aren't too bad. There are really only a few staples that you need to nail down though.

    1) f+P --> Staggers, flows into b.f+P. Keeps most players honest about crouching all the time. If f+P connects, the b,f+P will also. COnnecting with the followup will also retain your offensive advantage. CONS: The elbow isn't terribly fast, as most elbows go, but then again, you probably won't meet up with someone who can see the elbow coming and stand to meet it or punch you out of it.

    2) FC, d/f+P --> The upknife is VERY important to learn early on so that it becomes almost second nature to wing it out. Moderately fast, hits mid, great range and causes floats on major counters. Can be followed with d/f+P+K or P,P,P string. If blocked, the following P will also cause block stun. Enough to place you even again on terms of advantage. CONS: The initial lunge can be sidestepped, carrying you a good distance past the attacker. The following punches will track you around to them again, but there is a time of brief vulnerability.

    3) f,d+K --> This sweep is the definition of frustration for a lot of Lau's opponents. Not quite as deadly as in OB, but still fairly quick, easily dodges high attacks (and some mids) and does good damage. Stomp (d/f+K) is guaranteed after it hits. CONS: It has a block animation on it, so if they get down and block it, prepare to eat a low throw, elbow or SPoD because blocked recovery time is AWFUL. The slight upside is that it is possible for elbows to miss you because of the odd block animation Lau has.

    4) b,b+P, d+P --> Will cause a float on any hit from the TA slap. Comes out fairly quick, hits mid on both strikes, has a nice built-in follow and can hit OTB(on the bounce). Can be followed by any P,P,P string or you can G after the d+P TT punch and combo from there. Some truly devasting combos can result from this move. CONS: If the b,b+P is blocked, you can be punched out of the d+P. This will give a MC and a fairly easy throw opportunity to the opponent.

    Flowing from these and mixing and matching from here can produce a fairly solid offense for Lau. Most of his other attacks, such as the double palm (b,f,f+P) seem to be used more for conditioning your opponent. Keeping them afraid to attack, while you confuse them with mids, lows and throws.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: double palm

    I thought the reason Lau's double palm won out against a high punch was because Lau ducks a little as he does it so high attacks go over his head, just like wolf's short shoulder ram.

    anyhow, M. Wong, learn all of Lau's moves. practice

    f+P, b,f+P, follow-up with b,ff+P if the first part connects. REALLY standard.

    P, b+P, f+P, not really that useful, but you can do P, b+P then d+K, u+K+G, or just P for variety. throw a little delay in to keep 'em guessing.

    D/F+P, d/f+P+K, (float) roll from d/f to forward after the super knife and do PPPd+K, or try P, b+P, f+P for a little flair.

    bb+P, d+P, PPK

    if you're bored.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: double palm

    ::I thought the reason Lau's double palm won out against a high punch was because Lau ducks a little as he does it so high attacks go over his head, just like wolf's short shoulder ram.::

    peter: great to hear from you, yada, yada, yada (applying the peter principle). Now that I've covered the emotions part -- I hope you don't feel insulted if I say I still think if, as ice-9 puts it, you place Lau and say Sarah head to head, and the Lau player inputted the double palm command while the Sarah player presses punch, the punch wins. In fact, I just tried it a few minutes ago on the DC, and it seems to be mostly so. Of course the skill levels/reflexes of the two players testing it had some effect. I'll probably further test it, but it would be interesting to hear if others tried it out and what resulted. The ducking animation can only help Lau if the move is in suffcient progress. Sarah has a theoretical 5 frame execution advantage, and it probably takes two more frames or so (again depending on skill) to complete the double palm joystick movements than it does to press punch.
    It's interesting to note the move recommendations made in the posts and compare them with the moves recommended by the level 1 Lau guide. I believe they are P(G); PPP; DF+PPPP; f,d+K; f+P,b,f+P; df+K, f+P; FC,K; plus some throws and a pounce.
    Nutlog, I think you are saying that if f+p hits, then b,f+p is guaranteed as well. Just thought I'd point out that the level 1 guide says something like it's not actually guaranteed, but it's not something a level 1 player need worry about.
    No demeaning or slighting is intended by anything I said. I'm just trying to summarize the various views.
    Mr. Wong: I think peter gives good advice when he says to learn all the moves (of whatever character you choose to play). Let the moves become second nature to you, and they will flow intuitively without you having to think consciously about which move works when. Any way, that's the way I play.

    Regards, Imashroom
     
  15. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: double palm vs. P

    Imashroom,

    Suppose Kage and Lau at the beginning of the round. Kage does P(fastest move in the game), Lau does double-palm. Lau's double-palm wins.
    Kage's low-P hits Lau, and immediate double palm beats almost everything Kage does (throw, dodge, back-dash, AND P). Kage's elbow will win in this case though. As you can see, double-palm is very useful after the low-P hit situation.

    I never tested double-palm in close distance, where both Lau and other are standing, simply because I better use something else.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Lau=Shiun Di

    Nutlog thankz, you got to my point instead of getting into arguments about the move. I started playing with Lau to get to know the flow of the game. Who I really want to be my character is Shun Di. He is very wierd in many ways. How should I start approching his mastery. There is no guide here like there is Lau. I've practice a few times with him, but I've gotten use to Lau's combos and moves...where as I think I need to approach Shun from a different point of view. What moves should I consider "standard" moves...Like Lau's P,P,P/df+P,P,P,P/P,P,P,d+K, etc. I really need help with this one...I just need some direction then I'll build on that. I want to stick with one character and that would be Shun, but it looks like Lau is the one I've gotten use to.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Just as a side note, the double palm also tracks dodgers very well, so if you anticipate a dodge ( I know if you do anticipate you can do other things like throw, but... ) it's a fairly good, high priority and damaging attack to use. You'll catch them with the edge of your hands. Also perhaps at step 1 you can try u/f + K at a distance at a rushing opponent since the damage from MC and auto-knife combo is worth the ( fairly suicidal ) risk, assuming your step 1 opponent may not punish you horribly if he blocks it.

    Wen
     

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