Lau's P(d+)K+G and Pai's PP(d+)K+G

The recently renewed discussion on whether or not DC VF3tb is or is not faster than arcade VF3tb reminded of another issue. Some time ago I got into a discussion with Llanfair over Pai's PPK+G and PPd+K+G moves, and Lau's PK+G and Pd+K+G moves, as listed in the Virtua Project move lists. I claimed that the last P in each of these canned combos must connect (i.e., hit or be blocked) in order for the special (5 execution frames faster) K+G (or d+K+G) to come out and complete the canned combo. In correspondence back to me, he commented that after experimenting with the moves, he was skeptical that they existed at all. He based this on visual observation (analogous to his observations about VF3tb speeds). At the time I trusted the Mook and the AM2 move lists (both of which list these moves) enough to doubt Llanfairs' judgment. Well, now I've got the US DC VF3tb, and its training mode has allowed me to conduct lots of experiments that I couldn't do before. After playing around extensively with the aforementioned moves, I now think I agree with Llanfair. I don't think these moves exist at all. This is not only based on watching the moves; the damage rating for the last part of Pai's PPK+G is listed as 35, yet I've been getting variable damage, just like her normal d+K+G. Am I missing something? Do these moves actually exist despite what I think I am seeing? I realize this has little effect on game play for most Pai/Lau users, since the combos are rarely attempted. Nevertheless, I find this to be an interesting enough enigma to ask for comments from anybody out there. It's part of my quest to someday publish a complete and accurate VF3tb move list. I just need a very tiny bit of help...
Regards, Imashroom

 

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

After playing around extensively with the aforementioned moves, I now think I agree with Llanfair. I don't think these moves exist at all.

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Hehe. Well, I'm glad to see someone finally agrees with me.

Yeah, I'm beginning to trust the Mook less and less each time I pick it up. There are countless errors that have been discussed endlessly. This is probably why there were errors at Virtua Project in first place, since it was a direct translation of the mook. Sorry that our discussions never seemed to get completed, there was some bizarre email thing going on - you never got mine, I never got yours, etc. Ah well.

Speaking of which, though, did you ever get my email concerning Jacky's stance as being left foot forward and right foot forward??

Cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

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Speaking of which, though, did you ever get my email concerning Jacky's stance as being left foot forward and right foot forward??
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Yes I did get that email; thanks. I still wish you had added that info to the Virtua Project site, along with such things as the wall throw reversals ....

 

How come nobody else has responded to this thread? As a new student of the game, I am very curious about these moves. They are listed in the Prima and Brady VF3tb strategy guides, with damage and execution stats. They claim that Lau's punch must hit for the special PK+G or Pd+K+G to work, and for Pai's second punch to hit for her special PPK+g or PPd+K+G to work. Are you guys saying these are bogus moves and made up stats? Is there a way to conclusively test for their existence? Tell me how, and I'll gladly conduct the test if no one else will. But I sure would like to know if these are real moves or not. Don't any of you veterans, especially the Lau/Pai experts, have any insight into this? We students want to learn! Please don't ignore this thread!

Cheers, Wolfstudent

 

The general consensus is that the moves were probably in earlier versions of the original VF3 (there were 4 versions), but it doesn't look like it made the last revision or is in TB. I have never been able to get these to come out in version D or TB, so I would agree with the posts above. The move lists for intended moves has been kinda iffy in VF3.

In VF1 there were so many bugged moves and extras that no one ever used, that most people never saw the extra moves. Namely, Wolf wasn't supposed to have splash mountain and neither was Jeff, except as part of the TKoD and Sarah actually did have 2 kickflips, like Kage does now.

In VF2 I think the wonder glitches were the iageri(sp) (I think that's the right term). Jacky and Akira could G-cancel their kicks in the 12th or 13th frames and it would still hit the opponent, giving refloat, damage and moving them forward. Some of the nastiest combos in VF2 came from this flaw, as well as interesting graphics glitches when Akira reversed an Iageri.

My point is, nothing is ever really final from final movelists, when it comes to VF3. Most likely, the lists released to the publishers was from an early VF3OB list with the new moves tacked on the end.

 

I have to make one comment, and I'm not sure if this is entirely relevant.

For the longest time, I never thought Kage's u/b+K while his back is towards the opponent ever existed. Every time I tried u/b+K Kage would simply turn around (note that I'm not talking about his TT u/f+K attack).

GAMEST and Famitsu Weekly, however, insisted that this move existed, but I thought that it was a mistake propogated by an honest typo (such as Shun's chouwan command).

It wasn't until my fingers became much more sensitive that I was able to pull this move off. (BTW, there IS a difference between the two!)

ice-9 | Sennin

 

I think the reason why none of the pai or lau "experts" haven't really tested this throughly is the simple fact that both these moves are pretty irrelevant.

-Jason

 

i think "totally fucking useless" is really a much more accurate way of putting it.

 

u/b+k, does not turn you around after it hits. you can therefore connect d+k after. easist way to do this is to enter the command before you recover.
shang

 

Just to expand on that:

TT u/f+K = Kage does a flip backwards and immediately turns around.

TT u/b+K = Kage does a flip backwards but his back remains facing the opponent. This takes a lot less damage than his other flip by itself but a TT d+K combo is guaranteed.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

err...his back turned ub+K does 40 points of damage, same as the uf+K. as you said, the TT d+K virtually always works, unless they get pushed too far back BUT did you know that you can combo a TT PKG -> kickflip (or DP...i'm sure there's other followups, too) if the ub+K MC's? also, the ub+K recovers much, much quicker than the uf+K. in fact it's not even back-throw counterable if blocked...

 

? TT u/b+K takes 25 points damage. I remember reading that in the GAMEST's Act 1 Mook...but I could be wrong. Or did they increase the damage in TB?

In terms of stats, I'm also pretty sure that u/f+K recovers faster. But since the damage is different, I'm not sure how that translates in terms of either move being throw-counterable or not.

I remember staring at these two moves in the GAMEST Mook, so I'm fairly confident my memory is sharp. Then again, I had to pull another all nighter yesterday, so maybe I'm wrong. Anyone willing to double check?

Unfortunately, I've never been able to trick anyone with the u/b+K yet...button mashers either always interrupt it, or it's much too slow for experienced players. However, I was messing around with it, and apparently, you actually need to be in closed/parallel stance for the TT PK(G) to connect.

BTW, when I say u/b+K, I mean that in reference to the direction that the character is facing. So, a character on the left side facing away, u/b would be diagonal up and right. I don't really remember what the conventional notation is for TT attacks...but I though I'd clarify that.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Actually, come to think of it, I think most Mooks use directional commands regardless of the direction your character is facing, but on which side (left or right). So, I think I had the notation above mixed up.

u/f+K is the one where Kage keeps his back away from the opponent.

u/b+K is the one that takes 40 pts damage and Kage turns to face the opponent afterwards.

As notated by Mooks.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

ask jason, i've been using ub+K (the one where he keeps his back turned) as long as i've played kage in VF3. it does 40 points. and it's not back throw counterable.

i've only had three goddamn years of experience with it...

 

::I think the reason why none of the pai or lau "experts" haven't really tested this throughly is the simple fact that both these moves are pretty irrelevant.
-Jason::
::i think "totally fucking useless" is really a much more accurate way of putting it.::

With all due respect for both of you, I don't see how you can judge the usefulness of these moves in VF3tb if you've never seen them there. In theory, I think a really quick Pd+K+G or PPd+K+G would work as well as Jacky's Pd+k or Shun's KKd+P. Block the high punch and get hit by a follow-up low attack. A PK+G or PPK+G would probably not be much different than a Jacky b+PK, which I've used in specific instances with great effect. And who would have thought there was any use for Kage's d+P+E? And I've seen Chibita make effective use of Lion's d+KK+G (albeit in rare circumstances), a move which almost everyone used to call useless as well. Jason, I think you did a great job in a recent post of debunking the belief which some hold that reverses are a waste of time. In the non-VF world, great discoveries have been made when someone created something useless that someone else imaginatively put to an unusual and successful use (e.g. post-it notes were made using a "useless" adhesive). The point is, if these moves exist, then it's up to the VF3 artist to find some unusual combo or unusual circumstance in which they work well. Besides, the aim of creating a complete and accurate move list (which I am trying to do for VF3) is not to judge the value of the moves, but merely to present them. Can either of you guys help with this regarding the purported Lau/Pai moves? You're both gifted VF'ers...
Cheers, Imashroom

 

It's easy to check the damage for Kage's back-turned reverse kickflip (ub+K) if you have the American DC VF3tb and go to training mode. This move does 40 points of damage.

Regards, Imashroom

 

jacky's p,d+K is relatively nasty and nothing like the P,d+K+G of VF2 and VF3. we'll assume that the pp,d+K+G is like the p,d+K+G. jacky can almost always low pounce, and it's virtually impossible to avoid the d+K after his punch is blocked or hit - his sweep is a fair bit faster that pai/lau's sweep. their's are slow, low damage, don't allow pounces, and worst they have to have the punch hit.

it's subjective; some people prefer to to think that every move in VF was designed to have a purpose and can be put to use in ingenious ways...we just need to find those ways. others, like myself, think that many moves are just filler, either for variety, or for just for the sake of carrying over from sequel to sequel.

i think this is a filler move. complete crap move.

 

::it's subjective; some people prefer to to think that every move in VF was designed to have a purpose and can be put to use in ingenious ways...we just need to find those ways. others, like myself, think that many moves are just filler, either for variety, or for just for the sake of carrying over from sequel to sequel.

i think this is a filler move. complete crap move.::

But Rich, do they exist? What does your VF3tb arcade machine reveal? Please help... Also, there are moves in VF3tb that have been improved dramatically since VF3OB, let alone VF2. So judging the value of a VF3tb move based on its VF2/VF3OB counterpart is not always a good technique.
Regards, Imashroom

 

i actually tried it earlier today...it doesn't seem to exist in tb.

i realize i should have said that if it did exist, or if it does work in ob, then i would still see it as filler...

 

Arright, just tried the two on Training Mode

I just tried it.

u/b+K (where Kage keeps his back turned) -- 40 points
u/f+K (where Kage turns around) -- 25 points

Looks like I got them mixed up again! But, both take different damage.

If you tack on a TT d+K to the u/f+K, the damage is about 63 points. Assuming it's not back-throw counterable (which I'm beginning to think it isn't, considering the 40 pts damage), this is apparently becoming a very interesting move to use...


ice-9 | Sennin