Lei-Fei and Vanessa on LIVE

Well, I was right about Lei-Fei and Vanessa. They seemed like Sega's desperate attempt to cash-in on button-smashing Tekken players when their fighting series was in dire-straits in the West (just before VF4's release) and they are proving to live up to that distinction the more I play on Xbox Live.

Sega felt that they needed characters whom newcomers could feel confident in using but it's strange that such complex characters (more moves than any other character - perhaps not too surprising as there are far more cheap moves to pick from - and potentially confusing stances to access them) were designed to assist beginners in kicking @rse without even trying...

People may try to disprove my point by talking about 'tiers' but I don't care what anybody says about 'tiers', in my mind they simply don't exist - it would be simplicity itself to produce an ultimate A.I. that made it seem like Brad (for example) was the best character in the game - tiers are only decided by who the good players learn. But on paper, these two characters are just plain better than everyone else from the outset. How else do you explain Vanessa's offensive stance? A move that nearly turns her into a Dead Or Alive 4 character right before your eyes? (definition: a character whose entire moveslist consists of little more than varying height strings that leave them safe after execution)

These characters, but specifically the type of gameplay they reward, are responsible for destroying VF to an extent. You could take a room full of complete beginners (basically Xbox Live) and give them the choice of character. I'll bet five pounds to a dollar that the Vanessa and Lei-Fei players start to nudge ahead and increase the number of wins they acquire far more easily, and rapidly, than people who decided to use any of the other characters.

The point is, people who quite obviously don't really know what they are doing are far more likely to beat me (someone who's been playing VF since 1994) if they are using one of these two characters. And to embellish this point, more and more button-mashers are abandoning their initial choice of character and resorting to either of these two now the game is settling in. It's nothing out-of-the-ordinary to see 4th and 5th dan Lei-Feis/Vanessas - who go on to betray their rank with their utter lack of understanding and competence when you get to the actual match. And they'll still most likely beat you. Do you think you should see high ranked players who go to Vanessa's offensive stance at the start of every single round and don't come out of it until you're flat on your back? Or try to use nothing but Lei-Fei's safe varying height sequences without relent and then feel satisfied with their undeserved victory.

In spite of these character's negative conotations, I actually choose these two characters myself (I play as every character on the roster), but I don't play it anything like these online fools - I actually use discretion and try to maximise the full complement of moves they possess - not abuse their safe string sequences all day long, and because of these players, I'm reconsidering whether I should still use them and why I'm trying to 'show off' with such characters that so obviously pander to beginners...They are able to win easily without doing any of the moves and tactics they are capable of, so ultimately why bother...?

Basically, Sega have introduced a little of DOA into VF and I am not happy about that at all. Unlike a great majority of Xbox Live subscribers...

If you want to beat me using Lei-Fei or Vanessa, my Gamertag is 'LemmyIsTheGame'.

 

i kind of agree with you on Lei Fei...the 3rd highest ranked player on live is a dannish guy with a 92% win ratio over 300 odd matches... he uses Lei Fei and interestingly is only 3rd dan.

this means he's either:

1. choosing to mainly fight rookies
2. pulling the plug when he looses.

i previously thought he was skilled but since then i've met him a few more times and finally *shakes fist with glee* I beat the wee prick.

he will rush in every time with the same alternating attack strings over and over again.

at first i was trying to play a balanced game against him....setting up space for float starters and trying to throw....impossible. so in the end i just/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif'd him to death!

i can tell you i was so elated at finally defeating his cheapness i almost danced a jig in my living room!

that's what i was saying earlier about how the cheap players will force you into a cheap game to win.....not much fun.

 

Just keep punishing him for cheap tactics and he'll change.

You may like to throw and mix it up and have a more cerebral game of VF, but you can't do that against a button masher. There are counters to what he's doing. Use them, use them every time he starts using the same string.

It may be irritating, but the wonderful thing about VF is that you can beat the cheapness out of him.

 

All I see are people taking online play way too seriously.

Lei Fei and Vanessa ARE mostly safe characters as far as good moves and combo starts (minus the obvious big combo starts).

I think the best way to deal with Lei Fei is to understand which move his current stance is weak against and evading really works wonders especially agianst some of his cheaper stuff like the stagger low kick.

Like his Hai shiki you have to fast low kick, his auto-reverse you have to simply kick (though if he has advantage I think he has a bunch of nasty options but it's like Flamingo guess I suppose) and you have to watch out for sabaki from back turned stance and all the other shit.

The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif mash you can evade/back dash and pwn him. You just can't get much if you block it.

Vanessa OS is kind of iffy dude and it seriously isn't anything like a DoA character. I mean the one move I think is great from OS is like SUPER punishable otherwise she doesn't really have the annoying options like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from DS.

 

Wait... online VF is legitimate?

OMG, who gives a fuck. All it should be seen as is a way to entice people to like the game so they're willing to play people in person.

Sounds like SOCAL, except I can't win. (you know who!!!)

 

It's not these characters' fault that you don't know how to play against them.

That you're automatically blaming the characters instead of thinking "Man, maybe I should check up on some of these strings or moves and see what I can do to beat them" is a sign of scrubdom.

Turn back before it's too late.

Hint: Against Vanessa, learn when to duck and when to not. Well, goes for any character.

 

Do you hate me and Dustin that much? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I still played Sarah matches with you I just needed to work on my Kage and I get to play Talis all the time.

 

I guess the TC isnt quite as good as he thought then =P.

Lei mashers wont be a problem for me, but i'll see about Vanessa players later tonight.

 

I think the TC has failed to realize the difference between button-mashing characters and button-mashing players. Anyone can use any character without skill, you still can't blame the character. Saying Vanessa and Lei are "easy" or "shallow" characters only shows that you have very limited experience against those characters.

Vane's OS is exactly what it sounds like. Offensive, aggressive, and quick. But that doesn't mean that shes a scrub character. Are you getting hit by the mount a lot? Low punch it or just duck. Is this vane player abusing the quick punches? Learn when to switch from defense to offense.

And I won't even go into Lei. He might be a tiny bit easier to button mash with, but he's certainly not lacking depth. Play against a top-rated Lei, like JunoSynth. Then you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

I can see your point to some extend, VF3beatsVF4. After VF3 the game turned much more mainstream, and thus, characters, fighting techniques, and a much better input correction were implemented to gain players, who hadn't gotten into Virtua Fighter yet, coming from other fighting games areas, such as Tekken, Street Fighter, and so forth, access to Virtua Fighter 4-5.

I am of the opinion that the characters are all still very balanced, and that there is a counter-formula against every single one of them. I am no fan of button-smashing, but to some extend, it works better with some chars than with others in VF4-5. But, Good Lord, they got no chance against a real player ...

About stats: Who cares what your Live VF5 rank is? I mean you could have cheated anyway, waiting for a friend to join the ranked match, etc. - or setting up absurd session with little time, fenceless rings - only to ring out your opponent. In the end, it's not about winning or losing, but perfection.

 

Varying height strings? Safe after execution?! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I stopped reading here.

 

These replies just show that the VF community is more advanced than the Tekken one - A Tekken forum wouldn't even acknowledge the points I'm making and automatically just flame me for saying something like this - they'd pretend they could all beat the characters easily and that it was me who was cr@p. So thanks. Anyway, I can beat Lei-Fei and Vanessa and I do it ALL the time, but it's the difficulty in doing so (compared to any other character), and the likelihood that some weak player will beat you is increased when they are one of these two characters.

Overall, the online experience is a solid one and I've witnessed minimal lag, I don't see how playing online is much different from playing against live players as one user said (unless you win by fuzzy guarding over all else) - the overall play level isn't as high obviously, and people basically break the game with their sheer cr@p ability, but that's the root of the problem - playing online shows how these rubbish players can even degenerate a tactically solid game like VF. If these people can play like this and beat me and my brother who are both well versed in the game, then they could achieve similar frustrating results in the arcade. In one of my earliest matches, I was playing as Lau and doing his varied single-hit moves, trying to beat the opponent with variety, and quickly noted that my energy was dwindling rapidly because of my opponent's constant PPP string malarkey - I just resorted to pre-empting this and getting out quicker PPP strings bringing the game down to his level - So I saved the match and won, but it was a completely AWFUl fight to watch. That's the problem with these Vanessa and Lei-Fei players, they somehow derive satisfaction from cheaply repeating limited patterns and make me look stupid, by making the game look stupid, which I don't approve of. I've only seen one player on Xbox Live who appeared to know what he was doing with Lei-Fei and guess what? I beat him confidently.

As one user said while mentioning possible tactics, I do like to throw, I'm primarily a Wolf and Jeffry player, and throws seem incredibly hard to land against people online who never guard and only do safe strings...

Lei-Fei's 'safe full-screen dances' are a big annoyance, but I think Vanessa can be just as frustrating to fight. In the story she was designed as a 'perfect fighting-machine' and her in-game approach has stuck closely to this brief - every tactic and feature of VF's fighting system is accessible to her, when other character movelists have purposely omitted a few things to balance the game. Examples - she has deflect moves, charge moves, spin kicks to hit escaping opponents, numerous staggers and crumples, low throws, hit throws, moves to position opponent's for a ring-out or wall combo, reversals - every facet of the game is available through Vanessa. And her versions of certain types of move is often superior to many other characters' versions - her stomp can be done after almost all her throws and knock-down moves (if the opponent doesn't roll - they never do online), the damage level on her strings and juggle combos seems way too high, she is safe after FAR too many things, she can play the unpredictable game due to her near-limitless moves-set, she has the longest string sequences, a great ducking jab, a long range mid-kick and low sweep kick. Honestly, she has it all and I cannot see her not being at the top of the tree if the experts abandoned their well-learned Akiras, Kages and Wolfs in favour of acquainting themselves with her.

But that's not really the point, I'm not dissing the characters as such, just Sega's lame approach at rewarding new players. Vanessa and Lei-Fei used to be two of my favourites in VF4 despite believing them to have tendencies designed to assist less skilled players - their depth is almost unrivalled if you play properly - and I loved that challenge. Lately the nerds on Live have put me off ever bothering with these characters, and I don't know if I will again.

My overall point here is how cr@p players can get results from abusing Vanessa/Lei-Fei patterns in particular, when this shouldn't be the case AT ALL in VF.

 

I agree with the abuse of Lei Fei, but not really Vanessa that much.

Lei Fei is a hard bastard as I've said many times, he just has wave after wave of moves, that seem never ending. And people have abused it on Live.

I think we should just have a thread in the dojo for each character, on how to beat other characters, that way people can learn to counter and find out about character specific weaknesses.

 

Yup, those are good, but you just have to think a bit out of the box, similarly to playing against Aoi. She also only have them in Defensive Stance, none in Offensive Stance.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">charge moves</div></div>Evade them

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">spin kicks to hit escaping opponents</div></div>Her 66K is great true, K+G you can just duck and punish with whatever you want when you see it coming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">numerous staggers and crumples</div></div>True, but crumples are just instead of floaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And her versions of certain types of move is often superior to many other characters' versions - her stomp can be done after almost all her throws and knock-down moves (if the opponent doesn't roll - they never do online)</div></div>She can't stomp (as in heavy down attack) on any throw or any string. Light down attack is ONLY guaranteed on ONE throw and that's her 270 throw in DS, all the others you can roll away to avoid the down attack. Her strings that end in slam are all high on the last three hits, DUCK!! And even if you get hit, you can tech roll to avoid the stomp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the damage level on her strings and juggle combos seems way too high, she is safe after FAR too many things</div></div>Her combo damage is all right, but not exceptionally high.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> she can play the unpredictable game due to her near-limitless moves-set</div></div>Yes, until the opponent learns to fuzzy all the string enders that end with adv on block and punish you for it. She has ONE great string in OS and that's it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a great ducking jab, a long range mid-kick and low sweep kick.</div></div>Her ducking jab is not better then anyone else's. The long range midkick is great true, although not anything that sets her apart in any particular way. Her low sweep is not that good, since it at best gives you +/-0.

Anyway, if you're having trouble with some aspects of her, I'd be happy to help if you provide specific moves/strings you have trouble with.

 

I think you're kind of contradicting yourself when you say that Vanessa is geared towards less experienced players but at the same time you acknowledge how deep her skill set is. For a less experienced player she can be as easy to fight with as Jacky, Sarah, Lau or Jeffry. Or almost any of the others for that matter. If she's so deep and complete then it obviously requires a more skilled player to really succeed with her since we all know that VF5 is not a button masher and that the better players get rewarded for their better use of the technical aspects of the game.
Playing in the arcades since VF1 I learned to counter the cheap tactics of many less experienced players, I hope I can do the same tonight when I put my hands on my copy of VF5: Online!!

As a Vanessa player (I switched to her from Pai and Kage in VF4) I find Akira's absolute power very annoying and unfair at times but I guess the nature of the game is that not all characters were created the same and they are there for you to use them if you think you can score a win with them.

 

Who cares if your match was 'fun' to watch. If your opponent does the same move over and over, you do the same counter over and over, until you win or until they learn to mix up their game. It's a very common technique in fighting games to do the same move or string until your opponent shows he can beat it. It's just that most players have other moves to go through once their opponent shows they can beat their wall.

Welcome to playing to win. You can either play to "look cool" and be stuck in scrub-dom forever, or, you can play to win and advance your game to the next level.

 

Pai has all that and more. And Akira. And Wolf. And Goh. And don't get me started on Aoi.

The ONE thing that vanessa has going on for her is her 9 frame DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. That's it. Her other staple move, DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, got toned down from VF4evo. OS doesn't have a single redeeming feature (that's why people bitch about OS sometimes, i think it was Sebo who called it "playing a neutered jacky")

They should learn because it's not guaranteed. If you can use that as an argument for vane, i can use it for any other character.

As Jeneric stated, it's not, it's rather mediocre.

NO.

Learn her moveset /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif I haven't played against a single jeffry, i'm sure his move-set will impress me too.

She has a couple of 4-hit strings:

DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. That's it.
OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

I'm sure Pai, Lau and Sarah have as many, if not more.

If your reflexes are sub-par and can't duck them, then you can guard them since vane is on disadvantage on block and none of these "long" strings ends low.

What Jeneric said, although i have the impression you must be referring to DS db+p - that's no ducking punch, it's a mid elbow that ducks highs and sabaki's lows. Yeah it's great but that's also the reason it's so slow /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Only in DS, and the bl**dy sweep not only it' doesn't know down, it's on disadvantage on block /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

Akira does DAMAGE so does Wolf. All that funky DS stuff doesn't save vanessa from the hands of someone who has realised how the game works, sidesteps your attack to the correct side and then proceeds to float you/throw you for half your lifebar.

Now Kage, that's another story: Kage (and Shun, i wonder how come you didn't mention him) has a big movelist, high-low DoA style mixups, advantage on block and all the other things you attribute to vanessa.

Seriously now, play VF5 some more please, i don't know about Lei-Fei but i'm pretty sure that if *I* can point out flaws in your reasoning, experienced Vanessa players like Jeneric must be pretty raged reading your comments.

 

I think that's maybe overstating it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

 

Well I expected that there'll be a lot of button mashers online. I'm still not online but from playing kwon ho online I konw a lot about these type of players. Mostly they are easy to manipulate mindgame wise. Also dependent on the char u use you can just use thair attack pattern against them. If they do just switch between a limmited amount of attack patterns you can easily reversal and sabaki them. I know Lei Fei and Vanessa well because I played them a lot and I just played them because I couldn't fight them well. After knowing the chars I don't think it's that much of a problem fighting against them anymore. There are always tactics and strategys you'r not aware of but after you know them you can use them for your advantage. At the end, if you know the game it's all just mindgaming. I also play VF about 5 years now but I bet I'll get my ass kicked online. the reason is easy: I've got not much experience playing n00bs. I always play good or average VF players. And if your angry just kill them with their own tactics most of em get bashed if you fight them with thair own strategy. Those noobs will eventually get better and try to fight more balanced someday. If you want to have decent fights just write the players down that are good and ask them to play you if they are online. I did that in kwon ho and it worked fine. It's hard to accept but if n00bs win against you, you'r just not good enough. I can say that because I often get bashed by n00bs