Lei-Fei and Vanessa on LIVE

Events outside of America don't count, jeez.

 

I'd think that with VF The Japanese tournaments would be what matter the most.

 

Egocentric sarcasm too much eh?

 

It was. See the problem is, no one outside of the US thinks that any American can be clever. So he just probably underestimated you. Haha, I jokes.

 

Well it seems like you edged out a lucky win against my Vanessa(and she is not my primary character).

I either play on a partnernet account that I wont share here or on a friends 360 under Antwan BE.

We had some fun matches man so having lost a few times against my Vanessa, did you think she is too powerfull?

 

She does just fine in Japan, though certainly not overpowered -- check out Akai's JPN tourney stats post:

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/175081/fpart/1

Quoting Akai:

"Vanessa is not very popular, ranking 14th in character usage. The general population of Vanessa players have below average success in advancing to the semifinals, ranking 15th. The Vanessa semifinalists, however, have average success in advancing to the finals, ranking 11th. Lastly, the Vanessa finalists have above average success in winning tournaments, ranking 3.5."

The tourney wins are maybe Kurita's handywork?

 

Isn't it walking backwards -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif hit throw that was overpowered in Version B? That was what I remembered being shown to me.

Anyway, I think pretty much everyone can agree to the following:
- Vanessa has an easy to execute, hard to beat tactic
- That tactic is by no means unbeatable as proof of top Vanessa players not even bothering with it in tournaments

 

Hmm, doubt it, since the hitthrow won't work when the move connects from long range.

 

Shag, appreciate the vid, it certainly proves /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is not the problem. The move the vanessa player is spamming is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, not /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Should we actually count the moves in the vid?
First round 1 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on an already staggered opponent.
Second tound 1 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif whiffed, 1 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on a staggered opponent (guarded), 1 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif interrupted during execution.
Third round no shadow slicer.
Fourth round /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif actually hits. Wait, there's another /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.
Fifth round no shadow slicer.

That's six /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Of which only 3 connect and only 2 were actually any good (the one on the staggered opponent in the first round was useless, he could have gone for a better combo).

Now should i count the the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif? 3 on the first round, 9 in the second, 27 in the third, 1232141325R43 in the fourth and fifth. I appreciate Shu but franly it's no wonder the vanesa player lost.

This comes to support Sebo's post that her best move, at least currently is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif was considered her her best move in Evo (there's an old VFdc thread about each char's best moves in Evo), but that's just not the case anymore. BTW this is not my opinion, i personally think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is her most broken move but anyway, i digress.

As far as her backwalk speed is concerned, it is not the fastest in the game as Jeneric and Akai have pointed out.

Also as Jeneric pointed out, DS vanessa has crap punishment. It's only fitting she should be punished that much in return. Oh wait. Maybe that's why they call it DEFENSIVE stance.

All in all i think ice-9's post sums thing up pretty well. Now if only we could move this to the vanessa thread. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sleep.gif

<s>PS: sorry about the Lion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif incongruency, it's been 2 years i switched completely to vanessa, i must forget, but if the move is mid it further illustrates my point, other chars have mid full circular moves that push back opponents depriving them sometimes of a counterattack.</s> screw the Lion example, it only confuses people. Just remember that nobody said you should have guaranteed punishment after every move in the game.

 

The whole point is that Vanessa is not overpowered (in offline play at least). People are in two camps here. Those saying she is overpowered and those who know that she isnt and are making sarcastic remarks. Walk back-sidekick I mean seriously. Vanessas sidekick is not bad but its beatable by everybody and their grandmother who know what they are doing.

 

If van is abusing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, i could forward dash > evade > punish. No big deal. There are so many strong /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in vf5...kage and lau immediately come to mind. They are even stronger than van's as they have follow-up moves.

 

erdraug,

I didn't even watched the video but anyway counting the number of 66+K hitting/whiffing etc is pointless. Do you know how many times a player won't attack affraid of 66+K and get thrown ? It's hard to tell. However this is part of what's actually going on in a match as a result of 66+K.
Comparing 6PKK to 66K is BS as it can be dodge into some mean punishment.
Lion's 6+K+G cannot be ducked and is now easier to punish on block. But may be if u do it very meaty it may be unpunishable by 11f P (It's -12 but I guess it has at least 3 act frames so...)
I don't see how 6+K+G being mid proves you're right since the point is Vanessa is NOT punishable and Lion IS punishable for a slower move that has less range...

 

I haven't read all the replies in this thread and I probably never will, but this point is just highlighting how cheesey Vanessa can be. One of my earlier points was that it was like fighting 2 characters instead of one. Wolf has advantages and disadvantages, and so does Aoi, but imagine how game breaking it would be if there was a stance that switched between these character's moves-lists... Vanessa is almost that bad and AM2 deciding to give a character 2 moves-lists was stupid. Especially when these moves-lists comprise of everything available in the game. 2 more that I forgot earlier - neutral counters (like Pak-Sao) and a sidestep throw attack like Wolf. Why the hell does she need these in addition to her innumerable throws, strings, counters, launchers, deflects, low throws, crumples......

I know "experts" can beat her and that's why I don't believe in tiers, but the problem is that these Vanessas and even Lei-Feis can run rampant on other players using little to no skill by simply switching between available command lists.

Vanessa has got tons of powerful moves combined with being unpredictable as you don't always know which 'character' she is.

I fought a 1st dan Vanessa today and lost on her. We had 3 further matches which I won quite easily once I'd cottoned on to his patterns. He wasn't a masher but I still needed more than 3 rounds to figure out what the hell his favourite moves (out of the millions available to him) were.

 

Thats not a very good argument, there are more then a handful of characters with different stances and a separate move list. Off the top of my head I think all of them actually have multiple stances of some kind, many of which with entire move lists for each stance. Vanessa and Lei are no exception.

 

Let me reply to this with a favourite quoe of mine:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Bene Gesserit Littainy against Fear.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain

-Frank Herbert's Dune p. 19</div></div>

Btw, if you freeze blocking in fear a n00b vanessa player like myself, apart from throwing you, could also try to k+g you for a half-your-lifebar stagger.

Anyway, why are *you* complaining about f,f+k? I've had the chance to play against Manu in Stunfest and he didin't spam DS f,f+k. GFA from Saint-Etienne didn't either (actually both of them played from OS). Somebody else in Paris picked up vanessa? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

That doesn't apply to any of the other characters. Sarah is the closest (with lots of Flamingo moves), but just like any other character except Vanessa, she is stuck virtually on the spot, has limited movement and cannot guard.

 

Ignoring arguments is not a good way of winning discussions.

Neither are arguments from authority. Especially when you, as you stated yourself, have none.

Ad hominems only give us insight into how much a suave and skilled debater you are.

So your points are basically:
1. "I have a hard time against Lei-Fei and Vanessa"
2. "I do not wish to discuss how to beat these characters. Instead,I seek rapor with those that feel the same way as me".
3. To achieve said rapor, I'll vent my frustration at the myriad of online players who play to their character's strengths and beat me. Hiding behind faux elitism and ad hominem attacks to cement my position.

I'll give you a hint #3 is what makes you seem like a scrub. #1. and #2. are legitimate concerns (e.g. I remember having immense trouble dealing with Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in vf4).

"You are your own worst opponent" and other blatantly cliched quasi philosophical sayings are applicable here.

 

the solution is to pick up Lei-Fei and Vanessa and train with those characters and learn them.

I'm a Shun player and when player as a different character and face an opposing Shun.. I know how to defend against this character because I know him.

Familiarize yourself with Lei-Fei and Vanessa and go into and mess with them.

Learning them is the best way to fight against them. when Vanessa does a 4-hit string and you usually get suckered to believe that it's a 3-hit but you drop your guard and get hit by the 4th hit....... learning her will help you remember to block/evade that 4th hit that you used to get suckerred.

Vanessa gives me a hell of alot of trouble... because I never took the time to learn her... just as Brad gives me trouble because I don't what he is doing.

It is up to me to get familiar with Vanessa and Brad to learn to guard against them.

Learn your opponent's characters... you will learn their pros and cons and work around them.

If you meet up a machi player... just sit back and drink and drink and drink and drink while your enemy is doing the turtle and screw the machi tactics with some good drinking opportunities. The next thing you know it, it will get max drunk points and machi opponents will wish they didnt let your drink as much.

 

How would it be gamebreaking? If you switch the stance from Wolf to Aoi, you LOSE all Wolf's advantages and gain Aoi's. You don't ever have the advantages at the same time. It wouldn't be more gamebreaking then Wolf and Aoi are on their own right now.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Vanessa is almost that bad and AM2 deciding to give a character 2 moves-lists was stupid.</div></div>Actually it was a smart way to create a unique character in the roster.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Especially when these moves-lists comprise of everything available in the game. 2 more that I forgot earlier - neutral counters (like Pak-Sao) and a sidestep throw attack like Wolf. Why the hell does she need these in addition to her innumerable throws, strings, counters, launchers, deflects, low throws, crumples......</div></div>Again, she never has everything at the same time. She IS a complete character when you add up both stances together on paper, but that's simply not how it works. You're just quite simply wrong.

For people who have problem with the evade attack pounce: You can actually escape right when she tries to grab you, do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or :b:/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif depending on which direction she evades.

The inashi is only active when she's standing still in defensive stance and doing nothing. I repeat: Doing nothing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know "experts" can beat her and that's why I don't believe in tiers, but the problem is that these Vanessas and even Lei-Feis can run rampant on other players using little to no skill by simply switching between available command lists.</div></div>Again the contradictions. Reading between the lines it's quite easy to see what you're annoyed by is that YOU don't know how to deal with Lei Fei and Vanessa. But for some reason, you think this problem is not yours, but something within the game or other players. It's not.

It's YOUR problem. YOURS and YOURS alone. And as before, we are all ready to help you with information on it, but you have to come down from pedestal and realize that the problem is your own.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vanessa has got tons of powerful moves combined with being unpredictable as you don't always know which 'character' she is.</div></div>It's not that hard to see and you simply have to learn to keep track of the moves that switch stance. All two of them.

And characters are never unpredictable. Only players can be unpredictable.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fought a 1st dan Vanessa today and lost on her. We had 3 further matches which I won quite easily once I'd cottoned on to his patterns. He wasn't a masher but I still needed more than 3 rounds to figure out what the hell his favourite moves (out of the millions available to him) were. </div></div>Uhh...ok? Where's the relevance?

Well, she might be, for whole other reasons then any complaints listed here /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

I ask this not to offend you but because I genuinly wonder: Were you born a stupid logic deaf asshole or do you just choose to be one?