Lei-Fei's Version C Command List Errata

Getting started on another list (I'm about halfway through):

1. Lei has a P+K+G punch variation with a built-in G-cancel function that won't combo into Px sequences and that animates like his listed B+P. Even ken omitted it from his Dojo. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif
2. The PPP Triple Punch has a note saying "Stomach Crumble on charged MC." What I've observed is this is instead true for the uncharged version; the charged version seems to always cause a Stomach Crumble, even without an MC.
3. The f+PPP Triple Body Blow needs a Stomach Crumble on MC note. Also, it is listed as MP reversible, but I don't think it can be reversed.
4. The reversal level for the f+PPPP Quadruple Body Blow should be changed from MP to EL.
5. The b, df+P Split Strike is listed as not reversible, but can in fact be reversed as an MP attack. Also, it is missing a "To Defeat-Miss System" note.
6. The hit level for the K High Kick should be updated to H*.
7. The d+K Low Kick is a low level attack that recovers high.
8. The reversal level for the f,f+K Upward Kick should be updated to SK.
9. The hit level for the u+K Jumping Kick should be H*. It's reversal level should be corrected from MK to HCR. It also needs a "To Tiger Stance" note.
10. The hit level for the u+KK "Jumping Kick, Side Kick" should also be H*. It needs its reversal level to be corrected from MK to HK.
11. The u+Kd+K Jumping Kick, Sweep is a low attack that recovers high.
12. The reversal level for the u+Kf+K Jumping Kick, Low Crescent is incorrectly shown as MK; it should be MCR.
13. The P+KPP "Knee Strike, Body Blow, Backfist" needs its hit level changed from M to H, and its reversal level from MP to HP. It also needs a Stomach Crumble note.
14. The reversal level for the d+P+K Back Elbow should be changed from EL to MP.
15. The QCF+P Double Palm does not require an MC in order to cause a Head Crumble. Also, according to the notes, it is a Sabaki vs HP, EL, MP, but I hear no scratching sound. Are we sure this is an actual Sabaki? I can't confirm this. The move's properties have me confused and I've even posted a separate thread on it hoping to learn more about it... BTW, the Sabaki Chart claims it is also a Sabaki vs. HE.
16. The f,f+P+K Sweeping Hand is a low attack which recovers high.
17. The db+P+K Charging Body Blow is listed as not being reversible but can be reversed as an MP attack.
18. The df/uf+P+KP Dodging Backfist, Body Check does 20 damage, not just 15, and it can be reversed, as an EL attack.
19. The uf+K Van Halen Kick causes a Flop. It is also listed as MK reversible, but I believe it can't be reversed.
20. The reversal level for the K+G High Crescent should not be HCR, but HK instead.
21. The reversal level for the f,f+K+G Inverted Kickflip (#1) should be corrected from MK to MCR.
22. The reversal level for the b+K+GKd+K "Reverse Crescent, Toe Kick, Sweep" needs to be changed from LK to SW.
23. The df,df+K+G Falling Sweep and the df,df+K+GK Falling Sweep, Ground Kick can both be reversed, as LK attacks.
24. The low hitting portion of the df,df+K+GKK+G "Falling Sweep, Ground Kick, Backflip Kick" can be reversed as an LK attack.
25. The uf+K+G Double Leg Hopkick causes a Flop.
26. I am not always sure about Force Crouch animations yet. Do the two (u/d)P+K+GP Evading Crescent, Backfist attacks force a crouch? Or is the animation just reflecting a normal stun?

 

Yes, its seems that the command lists has been updated since I last looked at it. Lots of these errors are probably carry overs from the Blue/black/white book.

1. Lei has a P+K+G punch variation with a built-in G-cancel function that won't combo into Px sequences and that animates like his listed B+P. Even ken omitted it from his Dojo.

Huh?


2. The PPP Triple Punch has a note saying "Stomach Crumble on charged MC." What I've observed is this is instead true for the uncharged version; the charged version seems to always cause a Stomach Crumble, even without an MC.

This may be true. Its rare that the third punch ever hits on a MC. From the few instances it did connect. It seemed that the third punch was delayed/charged and MC for a stomach crumble.

3. The f+PPP Triple Body Blow needs a Stomach Crumble on MC note. Also, it is listed as MP reversible, but I don't think it can be reversed.

It should be able to be reversed. Single handed attacks are generally reversible. yes Stomach Crumble on MC.

26. I am not always sure about Force Crouch animations yet. Do the two (u/d)P+K+GP Evading Crescent, Backfist attacks force a crouch? Or is the animation just reflecting a normal stun?

Some moves do cause an animation that resembles a force crouch animation. However the recovery of that move is too slow to be considered a force crouch as no followups are possible. IE f, b+P and db+P+K. Those two moves are close to being useless so its not really important. So no Lei-Fei doesn't have any force crouch moves.

 

Yes, its seems that the command lists has been updated since I last looked at it. Lots of these errors are probably carry overs from the Blue/black/white book.

There's more to come; I just need to do some more testing to verify the results. But if you with your expert knowledge know anything else that needs correction, it would be great to hear from you.

Lei has a P+K+G punch variation with a built-in G-cancel function that won't combo into Px sequences and that animates like his listed B+P. Even ken omitted it from his Dojo.

Huh?

I've been defending the inclusion of certain moves on the lists, but others claim that they belong in specific character guides/FAQs only. I was just alluding to the fact that this particular move isn't documented anywhere, including your wonderful guide. If you input P+K+G, Lei does a stationary punch that can't be continued into a PP Double Punch, just as if you had pressed B+P(G), except it saves some frames (and time) since you can avoid inputting G. I believe this type of move is worthy of inclusion on the command lists, for reference purposes, if for nothing else.

the charged version seems to always cause a Stomach Crumble, even without an MC.

This may be true.

It's what my testing revealed.

Also, it is listed as MP reversible, but I don't think it can be reversed.

It should be able to be reversed. Single handed attacks are generally reversible.

I've tested this too (as I do with every single move on the command lists), and was not able to reverse it.

 

Before moving on, one more comment about ken's remark re the f+PPP Triple Body Blow: It should be able to be reversed. Single handed attacks are generally reversible. Take a closer look at the move (as I did). It's a two-handed attack. I am quite sure it can't be reversed.

1. Myke: In comment 15 of my original post, when discussing the QCF+P Double Palm, I had said: "Also, according to the notes, it is a Sabaki vs HP, EL, MP, but I hear no scratching sound. Are we sure this is an actual Sabaki? I can't confirm this." As I indicated in another thread, I have since resolved this and verified it is a Sabaki. But you do need to add to the note that it is a Sabaki vs. HE attacks (which I also verified).
2. The [Defeat-Miss System] PP "Standing Palm, Body Blow" is shown as MP reversible, but it's not reversible.
3. The [Defeat-Miss System] K+G Crescent should have its hit level amended to H*.
4. The list is missing Hit and MC frame advantage stats for the uncharged version of the [Defeat-Miss System] P+K Arrow Punch. Since it does not knockdown or stagger, I am not sure why the data are missing.
5. The [Independent System] K Punt Kick should have its reversal level revised from MK to SK.
6. The [Independent System] K+G Crescent is listed as not reversible, but it can be reversed with an MK reversal.
7. In addition to what is noted, the [Evade Stance] P Turning Double Punch is also a Sabaki vs. KN, SK, and HE attacks. Also a quibble: Its reversal level would be clearer if shown as MP/HP (technically, there is no MHP level).

I will definitely be submitting further comments...

 

1. The [Evade Stance] K Jumping Kick, though listed as not reversible, is HCR reversible.
2. The two [Evade Stance] d+K Sweep entries, listed as not reversible, are SW reversible. They are also missing an “Exits stance†note.
3. Damage for the [Evade Stance] P+K Backfist is given as 10; but it consists of two attacks, a high one followed by a midlevel one, that are capable of 10+10=20 damage. The hit level should thus also be changed to H/M. Additionally, beyond what is already mentioned in the Sabaki note, it is also a Sabaki vs. SK, HE, and KN attacks.
4. The [Evade Stance] P+KP Backfist, Body Blow does not require an MC for a Stomach Crumble.
5. The command in the Evade Stance Attacks section for “Defeat-Miss System (DM)†should be d+P+K+G.
6. The [Tiger Stance] P Hammer Punch has a Sabaki note that should be expanded to include HE, SK, and KN attacks.
7. The [Tiger Stance] K Upward Kick causes a Stumble on hit.
8. The [Tiger Stance] d+KPP “Slide, Backfist, Body Blow†is not reversible.
9. Three of the four hop attacks listed as being reversible are not reversible. These are: Hopping Smash; Hop Kick; and Landing Kick.
10. The (back turned) d+P Low Strike should have its L hit level corrected to H, and its LP reversal level corrected to HP.
11. The (back turned) K+G Crescent can be reversed; its reversal level is MK.
12. The f+PPP Triple Body Blow and the df, df+P Knifehand cause a Crouch Guard Stagger (i.e., they only stagger an opponent guarding low).
13. The following will cause a Crouch Stagger (i.e., they will stagger any crouching opponent, guarding or not): f+P+K Vertical Chop; f+P+KP Double Vertical Chop; df|uf P+K Dodging Backfist.

And yes, there will be more.

 

Too late to edit a correction (resulting from reading messy notes) in my last post, so I'll just comment on it here instead. I had said: "4. The [Evade Stance] P+KP Backfist, Body Blow does not require an MC for a Stomach Crumble." This comment should have said that the [Evade Stance] P+KP Backfist, Body Blow needs to have its "Stomach Crumble on MC" note removed. It does not ever cause a Stomach Crumble. On the other hand, the [Evade Stance] P+KPP Backfist, Double Body Blow does not require an MC for a Stomach Crumble; it always causes one.

 

1. The Hit/MC frame advantage stats for the back turned K Horse Kick are missing.
2. The df,df+K+G Falling Sweep is a low attack that recovers high
3. The Back Turned Attack, [Evade Stance] K Falling Sweep, is a low attack that recovers high. Also, its “Continue with df,df+K+G sequence†note should be amended to “Continue with df,df+K+Gx sequence.â€Â
4. Myke: The following low attacks also recover high, but you may feel this is already covered by their “To Defeat-Miss System†notes; in possible anticipation of this, I would comment that I don’t think this is sufficient to indicate their recovery level, only their ultimate status. As always, it’s your decision /versus/images/icons/smile.gif: [Independent System] d+K Sweeping Hand; [Independent System] d+K+G Double Leg Sweep; [Independent System] u+K+G Sliding Kick; [Tiger Stance] d+K Slide.
5. The b,df+P Split Strike consists of three component attacks each of which separately Sober (DP –1). It is possible for all three to hit for a continuous sobering effect. Each component attack deducts DP based on the amount the enemy Shun has at the moment it connects, not on the total before the Split Strike is executed. For example, if Shun has 40 DP, and all three component attacks hit, the first will take off 4 DP (which is 10% of 40), bringing him down to 36 DP, but then the second hit will only reduce him another 3 DP (10% of 36 rounded down) to 33 DP, and then the third hit will take off another 3 DP, for a final total reduction of 10 DP.
6. The following should have their “Sober (DP –1)†notes replaced with “Sober (DP –2)†notes: f+K+G Double Leg Crescent; [Defeat-Miss System] K+G Crescent; [Evade Stance] K Jumping Kick.
7. Each of the four stance attack sections ( Defeat-Miss System Attacks, Independent System Attacks, Evade Stance Attacks, and Tiger Stance Attacks) should have a G “Cancel-stance†move added to it. The ones canceling the Evade Stance and the Tiger Stance would then also need notes saying “To Back Turned Position.â€Â
8. I think the P+G Jumping Face Smash causes a Flop.
9. The damage for the f,b+P+G Leg Trip should be 55, not 50.
10. The f+P+K+G Jumping Back Kick wall attack should have a Guard Stagger note.
11. The Back Turned Attack, [Evade Stance] P Single Palm, causes a Stomach Crumble on MC.
12. The Back Turned Attack, [Tiger Stance] P Single Palm, Staggers on hit. Also, it has a note indicating it is a Sabaki vs LP, LK, and SW attacks; this really puzzles me. After literally several hours of trying all sorts of things, I can’t detect any Sabaki effects whatever. After my previous experience with not being able to initially detect the Sabaki properties of Lei’s QCF+P+K Double Palm, I wanted to be extra cautious before reporting this. I have no idea what I am missing, so I will risk looking stupid by saying I think the note is in error.
13. The last four attacks listed in the Back Turned Attacks section are weird. The listing indicates they are executed from either an Evade Stance or a Tiger Stance while Lei is “Back Turned.†This is confusing as hell, since: (1) It seems to imply that (as “back turned†attacks) Lei is not facing his opponent when they are executed; (2) more importantly, I couldn’t find a way to enter those stances while back turned (which at one point I assumed was required) or directly from a normal front facing position. Then in looking at the attacks demonstrated in Command Training, it appears that they are executed while Lei is “facing†his opponent (which I suppose is what a back turned Evade/Tiger Stance would logically be like, since both “normally†leave Lei facing away from his opponent in a semi-back turned state). Shouldn’t there be something clearly indicating all this? Further, the only way I could find to get Lei in the proper position to execute the moves was to have him enter an Evade/Tiger Stance, then have an opponent get to the other side of Lei (as by walking around him). Is there another way? Can he somehow directly enter the required position himself, from either a front facing or a back turned position?

 

1. In my first post I had asked:" 26. I am not always sure about Force Crouch animations yet. Do the two (u/d)P+K+GP Evading Crescent, Backfist attacks force a crouch? Or is the animation just reflecting a normal stun?" ken graciously offered the following response: "Some moves do cause an animation that resembles a force crouch animation. However the recovery of that move is too slow to be considered a force crouch as no followups are possible. IE f, b+P and db+P+K. Those two moves are close to being useless so its not really important. So no Lei-Fei doesn't have any force crouch moves." I must respectfully disagree with his conclusion. As I've since verified, the (u|d)P+K+GP Evading Crescent, Backfist attacks do "Force Crouch." An easy test to demonstrate this, is to use such an attack on a standing non-defending Sarah. As soon as she is hit, input f+K for her. She will do a Rising Knee, proving that she was in a crouching position. This also illustrates that indicating a move is a Force Crouch goes beyond its recovery time being slow or what follow-ups are possible for the attacker; it can be equally important to realize what follow-ups such attacks allow the defender, especially for a slow recovering move. Hence, these attacks should have a Force Crouch on hit note.
2. The back turned attack, [Evade Stance] K Falling Sweep, causes a Foot Crumble on MC.

 

4. The [Evade Stance] P+KP Backfist, Body Blow does not require an MC for a Stomach Crumble.

Updated. (I think you meant [EV] P+KPP).

Yes, I did. Sorry for the typo (it's because of such possible errors on my part that I usually list both the move's name and its command).

2. 7. Each of the four stance attack sections ( Defeat-Miss System Attacks, Independent System Attacks, Evade Stance Attacks, and Tiger Stance Attacks) should have a G “Cancel-stance†move added to it. The ones canceling the Evade Stance and the Tiger Stance would then also need notes saying “To Back Turned Position.â€Â

I added G-Cancel notes to each stance under the Special Actions section since I have no frame data. Also, I don't believe it's possible to G-cancel the Tiger Stance since the only way to enter the stance is through non-cancellable attacks.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I was talking about inputting a "G" command anytime Lei is already in one of those four special stances. Doing so returns him to a normal stance (including from a Tiger Stance).

 

Reversal levels for Lei-Fei's rising attacks:
All of Lei-Fei's low rising attacks are SW.
Midlevel rising attacks:
Face up feet towards: All are MCR.
Face up head towards: All are SK.
Face down feet towards:
1. no roll (no delay): MK
2. delay: SK
3. longer delay: MCR
4. sideroll: MK
5. backroll: SK
Face down head towards:
1. no roll (no delay): MCR
2. delay: MCR
3. sideroll: SK
4. backroll: MCR

 

Myke: Some of the corrections aren't showing up correctly (the italicized portions are quotes of previous comments):
The f+PPP Triple Body Blow needs a Stomach Crumble on MC note. Also, it is listed as MP reversible, but I don't think it can be reversed.

Updated.

The list still shows the f+PPP as an MP attack; but it can't be reversed.

The reversal level for the f+PPPP Quadruple Body Blow should be changed from MP to EL.

Updated.

It got "updated" to being listed as not reversible. As I said, it is EL reversible.

The uf+K Van Halen Kick causes a Flop. It is also listed as MK reversible, but I believe it can't be reversed.

Updated.

The Flop note wasn't added.

The [Evade Stance] K Jumping Kick, though listed as not reversible, is HCR reversible.

Updated.

Wasn't updated either.

Myke: The following low attacks also recover high, but you may feel this is already covered by their “To Defeat-Miss System†notes; in possible anticipation of this, I would comment that I don’t think this is sufficient to indicate their recovery level, only their ultimate status. As always, it’s your decision : [Independent System] d+K Sweeping Hand; [Independent System] d+K+G Double Leg Sweep; [Independent System] u+K+G Sliding Kick; [Tiger Stance] d+K Slide.

Updated.

The [Tiger Stance] d+K Slide did not receive a "Recovers High" note.

The Back Turned Attack, [Tiger Stance] P Single Palm, Staggers on hit.

The Stagger note still hasn't been appended. A new observation: The move is listed as not reversible, but it is MP reversible.

Some other new observations:
1. The df+K Ground Stomp is not GK reversible
2. The reversal level for the [Evade Stance] P+K Windmill Punches should be "-, MP" since the high attack portion cannot be reversed.
3. The f+K+G Double Leg Crescent is not HK reversible as listed. I am pretty sure it can't be reversed at all, but I want to doublecheck to see if it is HCR reversible. I haven't been able to reverse it yet with Aoi, but some of Lei's attacks require tricky timing to reverse (e.g., his [ES] K Jumping Kick), so I want to be a little more sure.

 

New comment:
The b,df+P Split Strike needs a Force Crouch note.