Lei Shiki Fei Today vs JeetKuneDo

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by NewB_4_Life, Jun 26, 2002.

  1. NewB_4_Life

    NewB_4_Life Active Member

    My fellow Virtua fighters I have a new axe to grind, and I trust you'll all in your special ways assist me in this.

    WHAT THE HELL IS LEI FEI ABOUT? I MEAN...WHAT'S WITH ALL THOSE ANTI JEET KUNE DO "HARD" STANCES? I NEVER KNOW WHEN I AM GONNA END UP IN THIS ONE OR THE OTHER ONE, AND WHEN I SUDDENLY FIND MYSELF IN KOKO SHIKI ALL I CAN DO IS TRY TO BLOCK...(TWICE) TO GET OUT OF IT. THIS GUY IS A DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN TO ME. I CAN'T BE BOTHERED, HE'S TOO DAMN STICKY. ALL I CAN DO IS MASH!!

    Whew!! now that I've got that out, the real questions.

    1) Isn't Lei Fei for advanced users?
    2) Is Lei Fei just for beginners who can do no better than mash or see 1)
    3) Is it better _a) to be able to quickly identify which stance he has now come to and know what your options (move choices) are from the current stance; or _b) to know before hand that doing x,x,y,y will lead to stance Z coming from stance A, ad nauseam.
    4) If someone hates Lei Fei's and all those stances, won't he naturally choose Jacky?

    Seriously though, isn't it just a little annoying, all those stances? Hmm?
    I just started to seriously try Lei Fei, and yes against the comp., and can't yet pass the 'Wild Thing' in Arcade Mode, she always gives me the Army Combination. For a character who seems so slow she really is feisty!! Props Hon'.

    Two options:
    1. Try to avoid Lei's stances by doing moves that don't lead to them, like u+K,(d)(f)K, or do moves that get in a stance for only 1 move and gets back to normal, exemple gratia f,f+K,PK (damn I hope that is right).
    2. Spend a nice chunk of playing time learning the "ins and outs" of the great monks "stance fighting" style. "He is so not Jacky"

    Before you all flame me, I never said I hated anything, I never said the game sucked, all's I says is LEI FEI is not for beginners-that you can flame.

    So, ermm, whadya peeps think? How many of you use Lei Fei, find him a drag, find him cunning, etc. I am doing one character a night after work, last night was Lei's turn. Jeffery can really pile on the pain in a few hits (f+KG,df,df+PG). Mr. Chan is so damn aggressive, that long combo (b,b+p,d+p,df+p,p,p,d+k, and then df+k - if they let you). This game has lots for everyone. BTW are we guaranteed a df+p, or stomp after AS3. I am thinking that since it is only 25pts, you get the extra downed hits as a bonus.

    Yow oonu a 'ear mi, run dat seen, memba, man a bad man, nuh guy tes'. Yaadie out!
     
  2. Ealsen

    Ealsen Well-Known Member

    I think the reason why Leifei is listed as beginner is because you can buttonmash and still do well (Against other newbie). Any kind of P,K,G combination strings lead to a nice flowing move combo /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    And to answer your first and second question, LeiFei like all other characters, is hard to master. At the same time, It's easy to use him for beginner due to the reason above /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    3) Is it better _a) to be able to quickly identify which stance he has now come to and know what your options (move choices) are from the current stance; or _b) to know before hand that doing x,x,y,y will lead to stance Z coming from stance A, ad nauseam.

    I think it doesn't really matter. If you play him enough, you'll get used to the moves and stances naturally. Although I would really recommend you to at least read the move lists and go thru Ken's Leifei Dojo.

    1. Try to avoid Lei's stances by doing moves that don't lead to them, like u+K,(d)(f)K, or do moves that get in a stance for only 1 move and gets back to normal, exemple gratia f,f+K,PK (damn I hope that is right).

    Actually, many of Lei's powerful moves come from the stances. Learn to control the stances and you'll become a better Lei player.
     
  3. gribbly

    gribbly Well-Known Member

    Lei Fei *is* for beginners. Yu Suzuki has said so in several interviews. It even says so on the character select screen.

    Yes, the idea is that you know which moves go to which stances. Either that or mash (and Lei is certainly the most mash-friendly character in the game, hence the beginner rating).

    But the bottom line is - if you don't like his stances/fighting style, why use him?

    grib.
     
  4. Mr. Noisy

    Mr. Noisy Well-Known Member

    IMO, I think Lei Fei is easy to start with but very hard to master
    It's very hard to use Lei Fei in high level play
     
  5. gribbly

    gribbly Well-Known Member

    I'm not really qualified to comment, since I don't know how to play Lei. But I have spoken to some folks who played him seriously, but moved onto other characters when they discovered his limitations for high level play.

    This is just more evidence that "Lei is for beginners".

    Having said that, I don't doubt that Lei can be played with skill, style and flair as well, avoiding scrubiness. VF is that sort of game, and no matter how scrub-friendly Lei is, it's still not Tekken.

    grib.
     
  6. Ealsen

    Ealsen Well-Known Member

    I really could not agree with the word "limitation" on higher level play. Yes, It's hard to cope in higher level. As many of his moves are linear. But then again most high lvl plays are mind guessing and Lei got lots of tricks under his sleeves. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  7. NewB_4_Life

    NewB_4_Life Active Member

    Honestly I think that at a high level, the stances are there as a route to confuse and to execute hte high damage attacks that come out of the stances, but it not really to fight in all the while. The stances restrict movement, don't they. Since while in a stance you have a more limited range of options your opponent has fewer things to guess about right? So that would be a part of the problem at a hig hlevel of play, since you want to keep your opponenent as clueless as possible, the stances restrict your ability to do that. So at a high level of play, I would expect to use the non stance producing moves like 75-85% of the time, and the stances for flavor and some diversity.

    I hear one guy's saying that maybe Shiki Fei can't compete at a high level, another saying he can, and he can mix it up in there.
    What is the feeling from the rest of you fellas.
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Clips of high ranking Japanese Lei Fei players prove that 1) his stance moves are very useful, and used a lot, and 2) he is more than capable of high level play, and winning at that level, no less.

    It's true that he has some vulnerabilities in certain stances, but I think you will find every character with a stance has the same sort of vulnerability. In fact, this kind of vulnerability should be seen as just another form of a guaranteed counter for the incorrect guess...knees, SPOD, and other such moves have guaranteed counters, but that doesn't stop people from using them. Why view a move that puts Lei Fei into a stance that has a guaranteed counter if blocked any differently?
     
  9. death_raven

    death_raven Well-Known Member

    i agree with mr noisy's reply. taking Lei Fei to the high level play is tough i speak from personal experience. button mashing will work but somehow get boring , and will not work for a high level opponent now to answer NewB 's question

    1) Isn't Lei Fei for advanced users?

    as we all know he classed as beginner coz of the button mashing abilities he has, but other than that i'd say he's for advanced players especially if you plan to use him technically instead of just mashing.


    2) Is Lei Fei just for beginners who can do no better than mash or see 1)

    no, Lei fei is a very versatile character and would interest someone who does something else rather than mashing,

    3) Is it better _a) to be able to quickly identify which stance he has now come to and know what your options (move choices) are from the current stance; or _b) to know before hand that doing x,x,y,y will lead to stance Z coming from stance A, ad nauseam.

    i think option A would be better, knowing Lei Fei's stances and being able to identify them quickly i think is one big advantage for him, with proper knowledge of his stances comes the proper attack, for example, the nehan shiki stance (/versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif) if you're familiar with this tou will either choose between /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif or /versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif coz of the attacks inashi.

    4) If someone hates Lei Fei's and all those stances, won't he naturally choose Jacky?

    this i'm not so sure about, coz it all depends on each person.

    all in all Lei Fei is as lethal as they get, and he may not have as much throw opportunities as other characters, and i think his evade attack is not that effective, he compensates with his confusing attacks, dokuritusu shiki (/versus/images/commands/u.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif) auto sabaki, and his inashi capabilities.
     
  10. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Lei is definitely for beginners, but as I've said before, I think he's the hardest of the beginners to master, b/c he's so easily readable --- SO, you have to learn to go from stance to stance. My Lei Fei at the arcades is now 7-dan (63% win ratio w/ 600 or so wins, and 377 losses). Not high level, but not bad.

    I've got a friend that's 10-dan, and absolutely amazing. Better than most of the high level stuff I've seen in Daioh clips. I need to get a video of him. With Lei, you need to make sure you're opponent doesn't know your next move -- especially if you're playing someone w/ reversals. Try to ingrain these moves in training. They'll help your game against people (but probably won't work on the CPU)

    /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif(Hold the 3rd /versus/images/commands/p.gif)/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    /versus/images/commands/u.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/uf.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/uf.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif

    Actually, that gets a bit hard to read, no? Hehe -- anyways, the more you play, the more used to the stances you get. He's quite fun once you learn him.

    Also considering he's got probably the most vicious sabaki-combo's in the game doesn't help people consider him for advanced users.

    I still say mashing works better with Jacky.
     
  11. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    Lei Fei is very "cool". His stances do play a huge role in orchestrating the opponent to do what you want them to do. He has many great striking attacks and can dance in ways to make some mens heads explode, much more confusing than a mashing Jacky to some. If your a beginner and your having a problem with lei fei, just evade and punish with quick moves or lp's. This is the easy way to stop an "OUT OF CONTROL" lei fei. I'm a Jacky player and also pride myself in having an extremely Nasty Lei Fei. They aren't opposites really, they are more like striking powerhouses.....................with auto inashi's and Reversals. LOL

    /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif.............best sequence in the game, most rewarding =). later
     
  12. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    That's only good on a float --- too readable, and everyone in their dogs sister does it.
     
  13. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    [DM]/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    Wonderful move, it only really gets punished at higher level of play. At that level of play it you should start to understand how to counter the counter-tactics used against this move.

    The first punch is a 10frame punch and the second is +6frame advantage on a block and non counterable. At a developing stage of play both using him and playing against him this move simply is among the best in the game.

    There is a specific tutorial on how to counter this move in the training mode. When using Lei-Fei its very tempting to use his strongest attacks and try to force them out innapropriately. While this may work for the first few hundred games it becomes progressively more innefective when your opponents know how to counter or adapt and start to read you.

    Again this is not a bad thing. Think of the huge offensive adavantage you have when your opponent looks to dodge or apply counter tactics vs this move. The pyschological edge is important to maintain.

    Usually against new opponents I will systematically trial their knowledge of Anti-lei-fei tactics by deliberately and blantantly showing particular stances.

    From a series of test I can analyse a few key notes on them:

    -tendency to Techroll/quickrise
    -tendency to rising attack, mid/low/none
    -ability to defend vs [IN]/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    -ability to dodge/dash back vs [DM]/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    -ability to counter fully charged [DM]/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    -tendency to /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    -knowledge of Lei-Fei's throw counterable situations:
    ie:
    /versus/images/commands/uf.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    [DM]/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif

    -knowledge of Lei-Fei's advantage or 50/50 initiative upon blocking moves such as:

    [EV]/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    [DM]/versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    [EV]/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif


    From analysis of the above scenarios I can create a very clear picture of the calibre of my opponent. Without a basic knowledge of the above an opponent cannot hope to defeat Lei-Fei.

    Lei-Fei's stance rigidness, in the sense he is predictable and not manouverable is more a good thing rather than a bad. I never execute a stance by accident. I employ many stance faking and switching to confuse or taunt opponent. Such that I never have to identify what stance I will enter or exit into as I have total control and mastery of Stance execution.

    [TG]/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    is arguably the best sabaki in terms of sabaki time window, damage potential, levels of sabaki. Its only major drawback is you cannot directly enter the [TG] stance without prior executing a previous attack that enters the stance.

    What you need to realise is many of those moves that enter [TG] give you a slight frame advantage on block.
    Possible course of action once entering [TG] stance are:
    [TG]/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    [TG]/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    [TG]/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    [TG]/versus/images/commands/g.gif

    From the above options the way your opponent reacts basically defines their knowledge of the game and calibre. A competent opponent in my opinion will:
    -dodge
    -non-counterable move such as kickflip
    -reverse mid
    -gamble a low attack ie: /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif (note GAMBLE)
    -gamble a mid attack
    -wait for block and throw
    -dash out of range

    [TG]/versus/images/commands/g.gif , would be an option that many Lei-Fei users won't employ becuase of the huge rewards that attacking from [TG] stance offers. However you can employ a Back Turned strategy which is provocative and highly effective. Or you can simply defend and apply counter-counter [TG] stance measures.
     
  14. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    Gaijin, I'm starting to take a disliking to you. Anything I ever say you have problems with. Are you implying that I'm a Dogs sister? Jesus man, I know its really lame to pull it off in High level play, very easy to avoid. But if set up properly its a GREAT MOVE. I'm just trying to help out. Your talking about Stances and 10th dan shit that the starter of this thread won't understand yet. I'm tired of your one-liners dissing me. I'm well aware of how to play VF, stop testing me!!! later.

    PS- Your anti-Jacky stuff is getting on my nerves too, it was alright in that one thread but to put it all over the forums that you think jacky is a easy character that has easier means of winning than others, give me a break.

    Your strats are good just easy to get out of. Your /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif would get broken everytime you put me in those situations. Also alot of those sequences can be EVADED!!! like I said, your probably posting just to help, so good job. I guess.
     
  15. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Lighten up. 1: It's a game. 2: It's my opinion. 3: I'm not implying you're a dog's sister (if the shoe fits, that's another story). It's just a saying, meaning that it's overused. I agree, that combo is good when pullled off correctly, but when dodged, the results are horrible. It *IS* used a lot, making your Lei Fei game even more readalbe than it already is -- something you definitely don't need.

    Jacky-bashing. Get over it, it happens. If you don't like it, bash another character or whatever. Telling me you dislike me b/c of it accomplishes nothing.

    I assume you're commenting on my Aoi strats. If you can get out of them -- good for you. I never said that they were sure-fire wins, as nothing in the game is. Bringing this up (especially here) seems a bit childish.
     
  16. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    You know what? It was childish. But it made me feel so good while I typed it up. Thats funny to me now. Later Gaijin. =)
     
  17. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Anytime. I please to aim.
     
  18. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    The context of the post is hard to define.

    On one side you have people who think they can play Lei-Fei but actually can't.

    People who repeat what they read, see, hear but don't actually use him.

    So depending on who is asking the question and who is answering you'll get a lot of differing and conflicting opinions.

    In the end who really cares...

    Predictablity, linearity, etc etc its good or bad depending on your strategy and the opponents.

    If your actions are predictable then your opponent will have a particular response to them. Then your opponent is also predictable.

    I'm tired of hearing yes if you did rock, they could counter with paper.. etc etc etc. You keep doing rock then they'll keep doing paper. Its a really damn simple concept.

    When VF4 boils down its just a real-time rock-paper-scissors game. Skill is how fast and accurately you can input your attacks. The real-time concept is that VF4 is a turn based game at high level play such that initiative is won and lost. When two opponents with differing skill levels play thats when one opponent can attack/defend more often and effectively.

    If the move hits then its a good move. The quarelling and confusion of this discussion is we are not keeping the level of play in context.

    Rather than bitch about whether a particular move is good or not, wouldn't it be more contructive to critically analyse and discuss those options. Rather than submit a one liner saying "yeah, that move is too predictable and only usefull in floats." thats an ignorant and ill-advised comment. How are you going to float with Lei-Fei. As far as I know Lei-Fei only has one move that floats: [DM]/versus/images/commands/k.gif , even so, that requires a Major Counter to float.

    Against mainly beginner/amateur opponents [DM]/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif can totally destroy them.

    When this no longer works theres nothing that could be said in any forum or guide that could define how to win because the level of play is fairly high and you cannot define a winning strategy because of all the option and permutions involved.

    VF4 is a thinking game as well. You can't win them all but its important to understand why you win and lose. With every move there is risk and reward and your decisions and skill will reflect that.
     
  19. Goro

    Goro Well-Known Member

    /versus/images/commands/df.gif,/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif is a float as well
     
  20. lau_fists

    lau_fists Well-Known Member

    I don't know why players post about certain characters being
    handicapped at high-level play, especially Lei, simply because
    Lei uses stances and doesn't crouch-dash all over the ring like
    a Lau or Akira. Jacky also operates from a similar "stillness", because
    he's a striker (mid-range most effective) character, while having an
    excellent up-close game too. Lei doesn't have the up-close effectiveness,
    but he's got the sabaki. Watching Shinz as Lei you see the monk
    instantaneously and fluidly moving through the stances, constantly changing.
    Ken's rant is correct in that every player has to determine what he is facing in
    another player. Understanding Lei completely will be your priority, and then applying
    Lei's attacks to your opponent's attacks will determine your skill level. That's
    what I'm thinking. I'm sick unto death with "tiering" and complaints of Shun and
    Lei and Aoi being limited at higher levels. That's moronic. The fact that Jacky and Lau in
    particular have fewer built-in weaknesses than the other characters means more people
    will generally use them, as they don't have to work as hard and can get by
    if worse comes to worse with berserking. Players try to defend Jacky and Lau as not being
    "easy" and that they're hard to master whatever, but I now believe
    firmly that good players trying to become SKILLED at the in-game fighting arts
    will gravitate to Lei or Shun or Aoi, even obviously Lion, all of whom have
    been proven at higher levels.
     

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