Let's Compile: Evade-Counterable Attacks

Evade-Counterability is nothing new, but I feel it is a topic that can be way more accessible to the community and compiled by the community.

It is true that we could trust everyone to do the reverse math on their own and keep the information to themselves or the formulas on hand, but I do think this is a case where everyone can pitch in and list attacks they know to be evade-counterable and under what situations (disadvantage of the evader) the tests were conducted.

What is an Evade-Counterable Attack?
An Evade-Counterable Attack is an attack that, when evaded, is open to guaranteed punishment under the situation?

What situation?
To explain it simply, how counterable an attack is after evasion is based on when the successful evade happened. The easiest way to measure this is in the disadvantage of the evader--and the test's requirement is that the evade was buffered before the disadvantage frames are up, and the punishing attack is buffered before the end of the successful evade.

So what do you propose we do?
Simple, list out attacks that you have tested in Dojo, and list the following information:

• Character performing the evaded attack
• The evaded attack's commands
• What disadvantage the evader was at (for example -2 is a blocked high punch, -4 is a hit low punch)
• The highest execution attack (I'm more interested in the execution frame count) you were able to hit the original attacker with in this situation.

How do I know it was guaranteed?
A guaranteed attack will hit the opponent with a "minor Counter." If you saw the word "counter" in blue and white above the "Detailed Stats" display (yes, turn this on) in Dojo, then that was a minor Counter ^_^

Any other tips for setting this up?
Yes, use the record feature and for extra measure press and hold G right after doing the move you are testing.

What do you not want?
I don't want people posting non-evade-counterable attacks. Just things you have tested to definitely be counterable when evaded.

Can I post more than one set of data for a move?
Yes, and I encourage it. It's good to test situations like after P(G) is blocked (-2), after 2P hits (-4), and I also really like testing a move at -8 or -9 if possible! While we can assume the math much of the time, constant testing is always best imo.

Do you have any examples/contributions yourself?
Yes! Here is an examples, and I will be adding more later!

Lion's 2_3P (uppercut)
At -4 situation (opponent gets hit by Lion's 2P) opponent evades buffered 2_3P and was able to attack with an 18 frame attack.

At -2* situation (opponent blocks Lion's P(G)) opponent evades buffered 33P and was able to attack with a 20 frame attack. I was unable to do a 21 frame attack like K+G (perhaps more testing necessary).

*Note: a * was indicated because in this situation, the buffered crouch dash is likely to add a frame of execution to Lion's uppercut.

 

While I think this is a good idea. The problem is that depending on the advantage it varies. You could be here all day with just a few moves..

 

We have space and time
There's a lot of space (on VFDC), and there's a lot of time (in the life of a VF game) ^_^

We don't need to do everything at once, bits and pieces is fine, that's why it's a compiling thread
And I'm not saying everyone needs to post every single move for a character or even a whole set. Just making a contribution here and there is fine and will help everyone out!

I also believe it will be natural for people to pick more common attacks and situations they would have to deal with.

This information is really beneficial to everyone imo, and it helps once the works is done, even bit by bit
Attacking a side-turned opponent is really good in Final Showdown, and it doesn't always have to be based on what you hit your opponent with--it can be based on your defense too, which this thread can help tackle.

For example, I wrote about this in the Lion Dojo, but 3P+K is a move Lion players know will guarantee a PK on normal hit and will guarantee a 44K combo on MC. This is because of the frame advantages from 3P+K.

What is important to know in at least Final Showdown, is that with the bonus frame advantage, 3P+K on a side-turned opponent is now doing +15 on mC (and NH), so a 44K combo is guaranteed here. This effectively turns 3P+K into a reliable high damage launcher.

Of course, the situation after evading an evade-counterable attack is not a beginner friendly thing. It is more likely than not that the evade-counterable move will have to be anticipated or read to act on this information. Though some attacks, even popular ones, are so evade-counterable that you'll have enough time to realize you can punish it pretty badly.

But I think collaborating together to help build this information, because it is not readily available, is beneficial to the community. Again, even if we come to the information bit by bit. The findings in this thread can be re-verified over time and ultimately put together in a knowledge bank of some sort.

 

Also, to make it clearer and more concise: It's cool to just contribute partial information--like doing a single situation test with a move. Over time more data will come and the good data and test results will provide more accurate understanding.

 

This information is already available in the frame data.

 

So I totally overlooked the "Total Frames" Column of the frame data in the command lists. So I'll elaborate on what Jeneric is saying to try to be helpful to others.

If we use the example in my original post:

Lion's 2_3P uppercut has total frames of 45 according to the last frame data I saw.

I think the successful evade frames is 23 (though a friend mentioned 21 to me).

45-23 = 22, but a successful evade doesn't happen on the 0th frame so we subtract numbers for the evader's timing of the evade. If he buffers from disadvantage we use that number.

2p hits = -4 for evader. So 22-4 = 18 and we get that number I quoted above for this example.

So we can do this with math as Jeneric implied.

I do think however, it is useful to look at opposing characters and figuring out what attacks are evade-counterable and list them for reference.

Doing math is good. Having a training set list is good too. And a knowledgebase for that matter. And I think forums are good for some levels of redundancy

 

I often evade on semi reaction so I don't always get the frames that the math says I should. Like if you evade eileen's elbow from -2 you have enough time to theoretically get a PK in before she can block. I'll be damned that shit is really tight timing. In practice I like giving myself extra frames to work with to account for my reacting later than ideally so I add in 6 frames to give myself wiggle room. When I go for my launch after evade I don't want that getting blocked cuz I reacted late so I find it helps me out.

 

23 frames is correct.

 

Your thread give me an idea ^^
You said you want to compile only Evade-Counterable Attack
And some people could react like "hmm well i don't know, boring stuff here" or "it takes tooooooo much time man"

So how make this thread interesting for players ?

- My fist idea is instead of searching moves free versus evade, why not focus on moves "safe" versus evade (that you should not evade). Since a simple 2P can be punish by an evade it could be more interesting to see how you can bait an evade.

Evade in this game is perhaps the more powerful tactics because of all the option select you can do after that. Dash cancel if you failed the evade, break a throw during the evade if someone tried to throw

But now figure out a move or a situation where if someone try to evade, he end up in a bad position no matter what option select he use, i think it can be more interesting for a lot of players. If you can setup a situation where your opponent fear to evade at 100%, that could change the game flow

- Second idea: we stuck with evade counterable attack but instead of searching situation with a clean punish (minor counter), we focus more on possible frametrap setup because players love to mash buttons ^^. Setup a Major counter looks more appealing for us that rely on minor counter hit (guaranteed punish)

-Third idea : We choose to focus on move that nobody will ever think to evade in normal situation because the flow of the game make them want to block. Either because the move look impossible to avoid (too strange/weird) or because the move look so fast or because the move is hard to read/see
Why ? Because show people how to use evade in those particular moment can maybe make them have more confident in some matchup

 

A member already has a way to visually represent frame data. I've never gotten the site to work on my browser, but it seems like a dropdown list of moves according to character. Using the same idea, you could probably develop a calculator to determine advantage after an evade. Set the opponent's move to be evaded, utilizing its total frames, subtract 23, and then set your character's move to be guarded (or landed in some instances), and subtract the disadvantage on guard (or on hit, as the case may be). That would be a quick, easy way to determine advantage following a successful evade.

 

Maybe the total frame change on whiff then? Because i remember see me punish jab in training mode. I cannot try now. Or i mess my results with something else.

I remember that cause after watching the tutorial of dandyJ, i noticed he was punishing : with a backdash into launcher on whiff and i saw some good player do that too. At first i was surprise that you have time to clearly backdash, avoid the : and punish him with a minor counter after that so i started to try with evade too.

But again maybe i'm wrong :/

Edit : With the record mode, i noticed that when you record something on whiff, it's not working on hit or vice versa. I was recording some setup and was surprise that the CPU was not doing them sometimes. Maybe it's linked with the principle of hitstop but i don't think VF5 have stuff like that

 

I talk about backdash to explain why i tried to punish them with evade too. I will recheck

 

Ok i checked and you are right MarlyJay and i was wrong.
and 2 are safe from an evade.

The reason why i remember/thought that you can punish them is because though they can guard, you put your opponent in a side turned situation

You can do stuff like 2 on block (-5) to bait your opponent to do the same after that also. Since you are at -5, you have a lot of chance to score an evade if you buffer it during the 2
Now if you evade is succesfull you have time to buffer (mash) a 3 and score for free a major counter hit no matter what your opponent try to mash

 

Evading a 36 total frame move from a -1 situation leaves you at +12.

 

Fresh out from the presses side turned evading is different than from the front. When you successfully evade from side turned it takes 28 frames for that animation compared to the 23 frames from the front.

So everyone can check out the formula for themselves and do their own testing here it is. It's a big secret so hide it from the new players .


your adv from side turned evade = total frames of attack evaded - your disadvantage - 26

you adv from front evade = total frames of attack evaded - your disadvantage - 23

edit: fixed side turned evade constant value

 

I see, so basically when you are side-turned... not only do you get the frame penalties from your opponent's attacks connecting with you (guard, normal hit, MC Counter Hit), but your evade basically has a 5 frame penalty too.

Probably a weird question, but would the 5 frames be something like a "turning towards" action and then the evade occurs? Just curious, and probably should do research hehe.

Maybe use an evaded-disadvantage situation to help test this out...

 

Well it takes 3 frames to turn to the front guard once you're side turned. It does take 5 frames to turn around from back turned though.

 

Hmm, that's interesting.

But either way, thanks very much for sharing, it's very good to know! And it's much appreciated ^_^