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Lion - beyond the basics

Discussion in 'Lion' started by MAXIMUM, Sep 5, 2003.

  1. MAXIMUM

    MAXIMUM Well-Known Member

    I've been playing Lion as my main character for a while now and having moderate success swith him. I've always liked Lion as a character since VF2 and want to stick with him. However, lately my gameplan with Lion has become rather stale and repetative.

    I basically alternate between the following:

    1. /versus/images/commands/b.gif /versus/images/commands/df.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif -> combo from range
    2. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif + /versus/images/commands/k.gif -> throw
    3. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif + /versus/images/commands/k.gif -> various mid-air combos
    4. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif + /versus/images/commands/k.gif + /versus/images/commands/g.gif -> /versus/images/commands/d.gif + /versus/images/commands/k.gif -> pounce
    5. /versus/images/commands/d.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif -> /versus/images/commands/f.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif float combo OR...
    6. /versus/images/commands/d.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif -> /versus/images/commands/f.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif + /versus/images/commands/g.gif flip throw -> /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif + /versus/images/commands/k.gif + /versus/images/commands/g.gif

    In addition to that I'll throw in quite a few /versus/images/commands/db.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif and quick /versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/d.gif + /versus/images/commands/p.gif strings at close and mid range.

    But that's it for the most part......... /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    Like I said, I'm having some decent success when I combine these attacks with quick movement and backdashing, but I'd like to know how much further Lion can be taken in terms of advanced techniques.

    I know someone will probably refer me to a Lio FAQ but just a few hints and tips would be appreciated.
     
  2. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't go for the /versus/images/commands/k.gif after /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif. If you're playing an opponent, following up with an elbow is nice. You can pull a stagger out of it from time to time.

    /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif is also good for people that are rising (with a low crescent kick) if you're kind of far away. Takes timing, but hits sometimes.

    Don't forget /versus/images/commands/u.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif (don't do the /versus/images/commands/k.gif follow up). Low punch, elbow, /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, or even a dodge are nice follow-ups.
     
  3. ZSS

    ZSS Well-Known Member

    Okay, some of my comments.
    ad 1. Course there's also mid senshippo. Mixing these two up can be very frustrating for your opponent.
    ad 2. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif doesn't have to be followed by a throw. If you follow it with the /versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif and should your opponent release his block for the last /versus/images/commands/p.gif, you can repeat the whole thing again due to his collapse. Pretty neat.
    ad 3. This is a minor note, but the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, buff /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif combo can be enhanced if it goes after successful /versus/images/commands/uf.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif. It's pretty dangerous though. Buffering a TE is recommended.
    ad 4. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif /versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, buff /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, pin-up -- as GP has pointed out, /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif /versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif could be folowed with an elbow or when either blocked or not, /versus/images/commands/u.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif is also a good follow up.
    ad 5. & 6. You can mix /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif with /versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif and also try to buffer a throw into it.

    About the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif okizeme - it is safer to /versus/images/commands/uf.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif first, the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif should then work for opponents rising with both low or mid kick. Follow ups as in step 4.

    And for the single /versus/images/commands/u.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif follow ups - MP is a good and surprising attack after that (Chibita style /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). The follow up is then up to you.
     
  4. Jerky

    Jerky Well-Known Member

    I dunno, judging from your post it seems you understand things pretty well. I think maybe at this point you might want to start looking at your delayed options for dodging opponents (catch throw, delayed /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, etc.) Also it's a good idea to find out against certain character matchups which moves serve as counters to successfully defended attacks (/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif after Wolf low swipe for instance)

    Later
     
  5. Nashi

    Nashi Well-Known Member

    http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=training&Number=83930&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

    You might find this useful.

    Also, try using /versus/images/commands/df.gif//versus/images/commands/uf.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif /versus/images/commands/g.gif cancel-> Various moves, into your offense. Use it when far away, and before the opponent starts the attack. You need a lot of practise to pull it off consistently.

    Also try to use /versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif when you're at the edge of the ring, because sometimes evades or not enough.

    Also, for Shun, after /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif I found that you can follow with /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif(small buffered dash) /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif.

    Lion has some complicated and hard to memorize combos, and the truth is that most of them differ in 1 or 2 damage. But everyone here knows that those 1 or 2 damage times 3 combos might save your ass in a match.

    Use EVERY move lion has to offer. They are all useful and if you know when and how to use them you'll be pretty unpredictable. Sometimes the AI responds to you easily because they detect the start of a ground combo like /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif so they just guard it all and respond in the end. But if you interrupt the /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif series with a throw (/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif-> Throw) or even a /versus/images/commands/uf.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif the computer gets pretty confused and you might get and MC.
    Mix moves and try not to get thrown. Only use guaranteed throw moves if you know it's safe to use them, or if you're ready to evade throw escape guard them. ETE-G has won me LOTS of matches.
    One more tip: Be creative, DO NOT, and I repeat: DO NOT stick with the same movements and combos. The AI (in high levels) will keep evading them and throwing or mid-air comboing you till the end of the match.

    PS: Having problems with /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif? It's not simple, but it has a pattern. Instead of looking at the animation to manage hitting your punches one after another, try this: Enter the 3 punches at a moderate speed, which you'll have to find out with practise, in the last opportunity you have of the Catch-Throw.

    What I mean is: You have a small period to enter the first punch after the catch throw animation starts. If you enter the First punch at the start of that period, you'll have to time your second and third punch to hit, which is much harder (1st----2nd--3rd). Now, if you press the 1st punch in the end of the period, you may enter the 2nd and 3rd punch with the same periods between them (1st--2nd--3rd).

    This is the period to put the first punch ----- and the second and third are always 2nd--3rd. To make it easier for you to hit them like a 1 2 3 counting with the same amount of time between each, you must press the first one in the catch throw's last opportunity frame.

    I hope I haven't been too confusing..eheh.. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
    Stay cool.
     
  6. MAXIMUM

    MAXIMUM Well-Known Member

    Thanks guys, that's some sound advice. Truth is I don't have any problem dealing with AI using Lion, but when using Lion constantly vs human players I think my game can become a little predictable.

    We have semi-regular gatherings up here in Edinburgh now, and I'm beginning to find that my play starts our really effective with Lion, but by the end of the evening I sometimes struggle to find more variety with him.

    That's not the case with my Aio, although my play is definately poorer with her. She seems to have more options as far as changing your complete strategy in a fight.
     
  7. Jerky

    Jerky Well-Known Member

    Hey, you should then start looking at some of the options i pointed out to you. jumping into other aspects of the game when you're are struggling with the basics (no offense, been there myself) as you play your friends over a period of time it becomes difficult to fool them. As you round out other aspects of your game you'll be fine. Later man. I just recently started playing Lion myself.
     
  8. Shoju

    Shoju Well-Known Member

    How good is this /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif move? It seems to get around a wide variety of attacks and delivers a fast low punch. After certain blocked attacks it can get past nearly any attack the opponent tries. I know this move is a guaranteed throw move and can be evaded to his rear leg but it seems too good.

    I don't see this in matches even in clear situations where it would have worked, so there must be some problems with it but what are they?
     
  9. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Hmm... Long time since I've posted on VFDC (outside of General anyways). I'd like to make this a double post (since I gotta sleep after I post this first one), but I'm not good on making good on such things--and I'm a bit too shy nowadays. So I'll keep this general and give a strong "in my lowly humblest of opinions." Apologies for lack of examples in this one.

    -Naturally, there's a lot more you can do with Lion. Part of that depends on how straight forward and sound you want to play or how much BS you like to play (offsetting guarantees for risky chances at bigger things). I'm a real BS kinda person (hence I've been called "a gambler" by many, probably a "fool" by Hiro). Either case, sound play and strong foundation are always first.

    -Based on the first message here, I recommend you implement Crouch Dashing as a normal part of your game. Relying on a low attack such as low punch for uppercut and from-crouch throw limits you a bit too much for what you can do with Lion. Another reason for using crouch dash is movement. You don't have the vulnerability nor buffer issues that you get with trying to dash in.

    -Adding Okizeme to one's game (to me) is one of the great joys of playing Lion. The guy is loaded with okizeme BS that just screams for attention. However, sometimes it's more for the "BS-Minded players."

    -I haven't played competitive VF4Evo outside of my local area (just early VF4c), but there were some good uses for /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, sweeps, /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, etc... Actually, I pride myself in making some decent use out of Lion's whole arsenal, but of course I've got my core set of moves (though my core set of moves is pretty large).

    -SABAKI!!! Lion has an awesome sabaki.

    -Openers... On paper, Lion is not the best opener, but he has a good response to everything an opponent can do at the start of a round. The first set of moves is one of my favorite phases of any round, and I think those who have played me (during 2001-2002) would have a strong sense of my enjoyment for it. I believe Lion is actually strong in the opener, and that view reflects my appreciation of his direct and especially indirect options on offense.

    In response to your last statement, there is just so much one can do with Lion. That's an understatement.... it's sort of crazy how much you can delve into Lion's arsenal in VF4 and Evo. I have to admit to being too shy to post everything I know or think I know about Lion--much of the stuff that would stand out could easily be torn apart under the light of solid-guaranteed play. Beyond the basics (and there are much more than you've listed that is for sure), Lion is a fun playground for tactics.

    -Chanchai
     
  10. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    whoa, you're back! :p
     
  11. TexasLion

    TexasLion Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JunoSynth
    I find ending in the /versus/images/commands/DF.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif slam is good for a lot of his combos since most people wont be able to time the tech part at the end. When they don't tech, it's pouncing time. It's good esp. when his regular combos do either the same, or just slightly more damage, so you might as well go for /versus/images/commands/DF.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif and hope for the pounce.

    Like after /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, a lot of times /versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif is the best thing you can do against certain characters for 50 pt damage, 60 on counter. But /versus/images/commands/DF.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif does the exact same damage, and chances are they wont time the tech part so you can pounce for 75 on normal, and 85 on counter.

    Same with /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif. Against a lot of characters, /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif is the best combo for 45/54 (counter) damage. Yet the slam is 45/54 too, with a pounce being 70/79. That's a lot for just /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif.

    He can use the slap alternative to end almost all his combos, so it really is a good move. It's not guaranteed I know, but believe me when I say most people won't get out of it. At least not without prior experience against it and knowing when to tech. The timing window is really small, esp. for ground combos, not floaters. The timing seems easier on floaters for some reason, but I could be wrong.

    1. /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    2. /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    3. /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    4. /versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif

    these 4 combo starters are probably the best times to do it, and the hardest to tech out of.
     
  12. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    /versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif.... I like the move, but it is pretty vulnerable.

    I've used it as a random low poke, avoiding some moves which I'm confident it will avoid (not many), okizeme, and some angle BS play.

    I liked it more in VF3tb, personally.... In VF4, I've been elbowed and sidekicked and even knee'd out of it quite a bit. It is high throw counterable and people who know that will lock onto it right away.

    The only time I can say it's been a "great move" for me is when:
    -I've either MC'd with it
    -used it to create awkward angles
    -against opponents who sort of pause after getting hit by it. Which account for slow opponents, not necessarily great players or ones at least accustomed to fighting Lion.

    Against sharp opponents, I've paid a price for hitting it just normal in the normal flow of things. Just looked up the Evo.A movelist and realized it's a large disadvantage on a normal hit. I guess you could try option select afterwards and what not, for safe measure whenever you use it. I usually do dodge-throw escape-guard or throw escape-guard type of okizeme myself (among other things).

    More often than not, however, I don't MC with it because it usually hits the opponent after their execution & hit phase of their attack. That's not very pleasant news for the move.

    In the end... it's been nice as a finishing poke, but much nicer with the angle BS play. Such angle BS play comes out for me during post-dodge, okizeme, and against moves which have a lot of movement (dodge attacks, range attacks, and movement to the side attacks).

    I don't recommend using this move in basic or traditional style play outside of okizeme or a finishing low poke against opponents who don't watch out for that "final low attack" (again, better players will expect that sort of thing). However, if you know your opponent likes to use attacks with "irregular movement" and you get a good feel for when they do it, you might like to experiment.

    I guess the good news is that, "it ain't Kage's /versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif" *snicker*

    -Chanchai
     
  13. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    It's great when you're staggered. It'll beat throw attempts and many linear/half-circular attacks. One of the last things an opponent will do when attacking a stagger is guard low...so the long recovery of the move is somewhat mitigated.
     
  14. TexasLion

    TexasLion Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JunoSynth
    Damn, my /versus/images/commands/DF.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif, /versus/images/commands/p.gif slam isnt that good. It's hard to tech, but its easy to roll away before the pounce hits by holding /versus/images/commands/u.gif or /versus/images/commands/d.gif and mashing /versus/images/commands/g.gif. So I guess the only real good time to do it is when it does the same or slightly more damage to where a /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif ground attack will be more then whatever combo, since if they dont tech, the ground attack is guaranteed. And I was hoping for some easy 70 to 80+ damage combos from this. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
     
  15. nnabuenyi

    nnabuenyi Well-Known Member

    when are good times to use db+kk and b+pp?
     
  16. nnabuenyi

    nnabuenyi Well-Known Member

    When is a good time to use /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and also, I came up with a couple poke flowcharts. When are pokes most appropriate to use against an opponent? Because sometimes they are very aggressive and you have to poke a little more, and some times they arent and you can let loose a bit more.
     
  17. MAXIMUM

    MAXIMUM Well-Known Member

    Cheers for that. Yea, I'm starting to use the Sabaki more consistently now, although I'm prone to screwing-up Q rotations, and knocking out an elbow by mistake..

    Some other stuff I like to do with Lion I never mentioned before:

    /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, /versus/images/commands/k.gif - decent damage when it connects
    /versus/images/commands/uf.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif - my stock response to gauranteed hit situations. I've yet to find a decent follow-up to this however.
    /versus/images/commands/u.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, /versus/images/commands/k.gif - I used to abuse this too much, but now I use it sparingly.

    I've recently given Lion a break and found allot of respect for Sarah, but I miss the fluidity and improvisation of Lion's game compared to other characters. It's intyeresting to hear you try and describe your play style with Lion......I'd say I play him the same way I play Tennis - very defensive, luring the opponent into the net for a passing shot. I find Lion fits perectly with this style - he's the sort of character you can feel comfortable sitting-back with and letting the opponent dictate the match.
     
  18. ZSS

    ZSS Well-Known Member

    Lion - throw beyond the basics ^_^

    Getting back to the very topic of this thread, I guess this special throw from outside the ring is something every Lion player should at least know about. Stick with it kids, and you're on your way to victory! ^_^
    --> ROthrow.wmv
     
    beanboy likes this.
  19. Neko

    Neko Well-Known Member

    Re: Lion - beyond the basics - old thread - questions

    [ QUOTE ]
    Nashi said:
    PS: Having problems with /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif? It's not simple, but it has a pattern. Instead of looking at the animation to manage hitting your punches one after another, try this: Enter the 3 punches at a moderate speed, which you'll have to find out with practise, in the last opportunity you have of the Catch-Throw.

    What I mean is: You have a small period to enter the first punch after the catch throw animation starts. If you enter the First punch at the start of that period, you'll have to time your second and third punch to hit, which is much harder (1st----2nd--3rd). Now, if you press the 1st punch in the end of the period, you may enter the 2nd and 3rd punch with the same periods between them (1st--2nd--3rd).

    This is the period to put the first punch ----- and the second and third are always 2nd--3rd. To make it easier for you to hit them like a 1 2 3 counting with the same amount of time between each, you must press the first one in the catch throw's last opportunity frame.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I thought this was a pretty good lion thread overall.

    I have some questions though,

    1) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif - thanks to nashi for that, but i am indeed having trouble with this though, and does seem almost too troublesome to learn and add to your game. When watching video I don't see this or even /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif too often... do you guys think learning this is worth it? is there anything yall recommend after /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif besides throwing?

    2) 3p+g followups - truthfully, after seeing so many 3p, p after this throw, untill recently I thought it was guaranteed! haha, what do you guys reccommend to do after this throw?

    thank you
     
  20. SG-Lion

    SG-Lion Well-Known Member

    Re: Lion - beyond the basics - old thread - questions

    Just a suggestion, after /versus/images/commands/DF.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif,all these are not confirmed hits, just nice to use/watch , minimal practical value /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    (1) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif combo on hit
    (2) crouchdash back then /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif combo on hit
     

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