Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

Move Name (Japanese): ShippoShouSenShu

<u>Nicknames</u>
"Uppercut" (note: Lion has two "uppercuts")
"From Crouch Uppercut"

<u>VF5 Stats</u>
Ver C: 18 M MP 15 2 45 -8 +1 down b . f
Ver B: 18 M MP 15 2 45 -8 +1 down b . f

<u>Positive Notes</u>

+This move is a basic combo launcher on Major Counter (MC). In fact, the whole objective of this move is to interrupt your opponent with it.

+Good alternative to a standard elbow. 15 frame execution and not completely screwed when blocked.

+Changes Lion's stance

+Moves Lion forward a surprising amount.

+Weird property: If the opponent blocks Lion's Low Punch in closed stance, this attack will MC a Low Punch response from the Opponent (another reason opponents should elbow Lion after blocking his low punch).
***I can't fully verify the above "Weird Property." It might be more situational, though Lion has properties like that.***

<u>Negative Notes</u>

-Being -8 on block means that the opponent has Nitaku when blocking this attack. In that situation, you cannot duck under throws and so you will really have to guess your opponent's attacks well. (ETEG becomes a good option here if you don't abuse it, but many keen players are aware that Lion players are evade-prone after getting this attack blocked).

-Only +1 on Normal Hit

-Incredibly Linear, expect this attack to be dodged if you try to use it too much.

-Requires crouch state. This attack is often telegraphed as a result.

-This attack is the bane of (standing) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

-Does not punish crouching opponents.

<u>A Couple Good to Know Combos</u>

Universal: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (MC) --> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif --> (Hit-Check Open Stance) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
(This combo starts from Closed Stance before /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif)
(Version B & C)

Universal: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (MC) --> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif --> (Hit-Check Closed Stance) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
(This combo starts from Open Stance before /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif)
(Version B & C)

======================================
Note: I'm going to try an old way of doing things and post what I know (or think I know) about various moves... We'll see if the discussions stay productive and if we can discover the truths and myths about these moves... And the combos/sequences that stem from them! Like I always say, corrections are more than welcome--they're begged for.

 

My overall thoughts on this move is that it's not the staple it once was back in the VF2/VF3 days.

It is a basic combo launcher that Lion players should know.

It is also your anti-LP Spammer attack because they'll LP their way into a combo if you use this attack. But when used this way, this move is only good against beginners over-aggressive players--people who are not really playing the game properly.

If you do MC with this attack and combo properly with it, your Lion is in a good position for Okizeme and has done decent damage (at least according to Lion standards).

But at higher level play, this move suffers from being totally linear and not giving you much on normal hit.

Its risk/reward ratio gets skewed by the following negatives:
- being -8 on block adds to the risk category
- only +1 on normal hit
- crouch requirement makes this move likely to be telegraphed by most beginner/intermediate players
- completely linear
- doesn't do jack to crouching opponents.

It also gets in the way of Lion having a really good, easy access "low attack punisher." This move's existence makes life hard on Lion's basic Elbow-Punch ( /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif) which would be quite strong for the beginning Lion player if Lion was able to do that attack from low block without special buffering.

The weird property of this attack is at least good against people who use Low Punch too much as an answer for everything they block. Especially if they use low punch after blocking low punch (just remember closed stance).

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

This move actually goes under most mids as well. I'm sure it depends on distance as well as stance.

I think this is his strongest launcher. Being that throw now takes more frames than VF4 days, this move is stronger than before.

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

Nick, regarding this move not being the staple it used to be, I don't think it was in VF2...

But besides that, I agree, it's not nearly the go-to move it was in VF3 or even VF4.

I don't agree with Dobi that it's stronger than in VF4, namely because one of the prime opportunities in VF4 to interrupt an opponent and launch with it was when recovering from a side tech roll, and it appears (at least to me) so much easier for an opponent to interrupt a tech roll -> f+p uppercut now in 5 than it was before in 4.

Best,

-Jason

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

What I meant by in VF5 is stronger is through the frames or more to say on the change of throw system.

Now I'm not too quite sure on the details of frames, but I'm gonna take a guess.

In VF4, the only thing that was counterable was just throw. Nothing else from what I can remember, not even p?

Now being that VF5 has the clash system, 13 frame throw, it is much stronger. I think.. that on guard (Ver.B, I dunno Ver.C), you are left at -8. That leaves you to not be able to duck a throw attempt from the opponent. But, if you are a masher, I believe you can mash your way to a throw-clash? Sorry I dunno the correct term for that as well. This would leave both of you 50/50. I don't think clash is fair, for both sides.

However, there are still moves that can beat the throw-clashing way. FYI, not all jumping moves can get out of throw-clashes. You can try u+k after a guarded uppercut or some other guarded moves. You are bound to get the clash. You can though use b,b+k if you know they will try to throw, or purposefully trying to have that throw-clash to happen.

So that being said, the only thing fully guaranteed that can hit you, is only a throw-attempt, or more likely a throw-clash. Nothing is guaranteed from this. In VF4, it was only throw.

The bigger reason why I think this move is much stronger than the other launchers he has is because.... this move goes under a lot of mids. If you wanna try for yourself, try spamming this move after every move that is less than -8 or -13(enough for a guaranteed p).

Forgive me for the lack of frame knowledge.

 

Personally, I think Lion's "best launcher" is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

I will write more on it later (in the same style as this thread), but the three big factors for that:
-Combo Damage/Launches on Normal Hit
-Unclashable
-If interrupted or even launched, back turned has the chance of ruining your opponent's combo opportunity (making this an oddly safer option for guessing poorly in Nitaku).

I tend to think that clashing makes the uppercut a "more passive" option. Again, when talking about clashing, I just think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a better option.

Fortunately for both moves, they're "naturally delayable" because of buffered in dashes (crouch dash for uppercut, backdash for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).

Being throw counterable was a definite negative for this attack in the VF4 games. However, I think that being only -8 on VF5 just makes the move "less punishable" but I wouldn't say it was much better... But to give a lot of credit to your point, because of the change to the throw system, I can now consider doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (block) --> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for people with the throw habit.

In the end, being very linear and requiring MC is what weakens this attack in both VF4 and VF5. Its ability to slide under certain attacks and disrupt what would otherwise be a normal flow has kept its usefulness in the game though--especially because of the damage potential.

At least that's what I think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Glad to have both of you in the discussion ^_^

Side Note: I now like to write combos with hit-check points... That is, determining the combo after the uppercut MC's instead of worrying about what stance I was in before I launched the opponent. But I did write explain underneath the pre-stance requirement for those that were wondering--since the uppercut changes stance).

-Chanchai

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

Not a staple move?

Uh...what other move does he have to counterhit launch opponents? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is high, so it can't really be used for nitaku.

And being linear is not really that much of a negative...how many similar moves among other characters track? Exactly.

It doesn't get "telegraphed" from standing position easily if you buffer properly. Buffering the crouch dash during guard or hit recovery means you only lose 1 frame on the move's execution as opposed to doing it directly from standing. 1 frame. So the crouch dash isn't visible.

All in all I think this move is a great counterhit launcher, only 15 frames from crouching state, 16f from standing makes it quite fast. It's definitely one of Lion's very best and most important moves, without it he's screwed.

 

Regarding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in Nitaku situations, I'm referring to using it in abare--when your opponent has nitaku. Or pretty much, anytime you think your opponent is going to throw.

Thanks for your input on the move. I don't think Lion's screwed without the uppercut, but to clarify--I do think it's a staple move. Just not nearly as much of a staple as it was in the past (which is fine, Lion has a decently varied repertoire of attacks).

It is his primary mid-launcher because of its speed and some of its awkward properties.

But I do think Lion could get by without using the uppercut. But life is definitely a bit easier with it in there.

But I admit, I use the move a lot. In fact, I use it too much

-Chanchai

 

But what exactly would you use instead to threaten with at advantage? He doesn't really have anything else nearly as fast that hits mid and launches. Without it you're basically just left to poking and gambling on silly shenanigans that works once on good players and never again. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is really the only move he has to threaten with big damage, you pretty much have to use it to make your opponent even a bit intimidated by your Lion.

I think the only real nerf that has been done to this move is that the combos are less damaging then in VF4 era.

 

What do you do Chanchai after you've MC your opponent with 2p? When you're +7 after guarding a big move?

 

Point taken /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif It's the most solid mid option when you know or think opponent will attack (outside of them doing a sabaki anyways, but that's too specific a situation).

I think in my case, I've been brainwashed by too many opponents doing ETEG or even simply evading as a reflex against Lion when he does low punch. Of course throw will take care of evading opponents.

My honest answer is that in most cases, if my opponent has shown no sign of evading or ETEG, I do use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in this situation.

But, the brainwashing part I was talking about... When my opponents tend to use ETEG, I've become "brainwashed" into using the following moves lately:
1) (delayed) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combo
2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (with delayed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string flowchart game) if they dodge to Lion's back.
3) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif with combo on MC if they dodge to Lion's front

And to decent success.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will handle any attacking option, but is weak to simply blocking low (which many people don't do when they are in -7), I like to apply a series of guessing games on the opponent with this attack because the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif followup can really be delayed, which leads to more forced guessing game situations.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif isn't super great reward wise, unless you get the MC. In this case, they would need an 11 frame attack (a fast high punch or something similar) to beat out the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. But again, I do this because I think they'll do something like ETEG.

I'm not great at delayed attacks though (except it happens accidentally online lol), but /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has been fun to punish failed evades.

But point taken about how important the uppercut really is. It's one of the hands down best options in these situations.

-Chanchai

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

Hi,

Just to share some experiment I have with Lion VF5 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, (slam on normal hit). After /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif hit, back-dash, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

The reason for back-dash for attack checking and create space for whiff. Works quite well for short-range opponent's attacks like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (elbow)).

The reward : /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combo
The risk : -12 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif
The pressure : can dash in for throw if opponent guard.

For the Uppercut, one of my tendency is to use after 2K or 4P hit beside after 2P.

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

Since this thread is about the "uppercut," I'm still going to support the fact that this is the best launcher.

b,b+k is a high and so is the following up p+k. Let's say you whiff, then trying to outsmart the opponent by using a backturned move. I think most opponents will duck since Lion's only mid option from backturned won't do much damage and harm. Also, if you are actually trying to delay the p+k, maybe the opponent can react fast enough to back-throw you. I'm not saying high attacks are useless compared to mids. Just that this isn't as good of an option as the uppercut.

The risk for the uppercut is not as much as other launchers, at least that's what I think. The reward is much more comparing to other launchers, you can carry them half-way across the ring easily without having to hesistate which combo you're going to do.

The interrupting property of this move is weirder (better) than any of his other launchers. I can't say 100% what type of property but just being the fact that it can go under most mids already makes itself stronger. You do not need to be so far away, or waiting to delay this move. Almost like a ghost-move that goes through all moves, sometimes even including people's lowp like it was mentioned. The only thing that requires this to be a hard launcher is the fact that you need a MC.

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

Thanks for the post SG-Lion ^_^

I love zoning with Lion. I was thinking of actually writing about backdash after low punch, because Lion does have a unique range on his low punch (the upside of having a slower low punch).

Hehe, I have to admit I also use the uppercut after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

-Chanchai

 

Re: Lion Move Discussion: D, f+P ("Uppercut")

I'm starting to doubt the weird property as described (low P (blocked) --> fc, f+P).

Hopefully we can verify this soon, I was pretty certain it was really there and the conditions were as described. But last time I checked it out with DubC's Akira and I couldn't replicate it online if he hit low P as fast as possible.

-Chanchai