Lion Theory and Set-ups

So I came across something interesting while watching a vid.

41236p>(wall)1k+g>wallstgr

1k+g will wall stagger if it hits while opponent is sideturned. This offers some really nice mixup possibilities from 41236p in a wall situation.

41236p>336p+k for if they start ducking 1k+g
41236p>46p+g/66p+g for if they start evading

Either one leads to some pretty nice damage. Any thoughts or set-ups of your own gentlemen?


Also 3p+k(wall)66p+g 94dmg(CH), 86dmg(NH)....nice

 

Sorry for a waste-reply (about to go to a tournament) but... I'm definitely enthusiastic about this thread and just letting you know I'll try to add a lot of stuff to it.

Hopefully useful stuff and hopefully things you will count as either Set-Ups or part of Lion Theory ^_^

Because of the "Theory" wording, does that mean you're cool if I break down various uses of a single move and how to "set that move up?"

 

Sure man, by all means break it down as much as you like.

I have no back crumple set ups/combos yet if anyone else does.

Hey, good luck in the tournament Chanchai!

 

hey u have any advice on how to control the momentum in a match. I'm looking for some better ways to take advantage of knock down and recover form knock down.

 

Well Lion has some great oki options.

So after knockdown you should be looking to apply either 8k or possibly 46k+g for a low rising kick. If you suspect a mid rising then atm I tend to rely on spacing (jumping backwards or back dash when you see the animation start) and then follow that with a sweep or perhaps 66p.

I'd be interested to know what others do to counter mid rising cause I used to rely on TRMF in vanilla (which would take you out of range when you went into it) and haven't come up with any great strats yet.

Of course if it's a linear mid rising then you can sabaki it with 214p.

 

You can 4P+K(keep charging it to max) under mid rising attacks(face up feet towards you) but the timing is kinda tight. This will generally make your opponent think twice about using a rising attack since it leads to a huge combo after.

For lows you can also 46+K for a combo too.

 

Just a quick note to say after 41236P, you don't have to buffer crouching dash as the move ends crouching. Just input 6PK immediately afterwards and if they hit a button it will side crumple them.

 

I am currently working on a Move-Specific Interpretation (it's like a very subjective Mini-Guide). I won't say what move I will be covering with this, just that I have spent a lot of my free time over the weekend testing a lot of things out for it to make sure it is more objective.

I hope to have it out soon, but since the work week has already started, we'll see how long it takes from now but much of the material is already set.

That said, I do want to add more to this thread so I'll at least tease at some topics I find of interested to Lion. I also hope to write more content talking about these approaches to Lion in the future.

I have kept this post general on purpose--I intend to go more in-depth with these topics (and more) later and one at a time ^_^

Lion's Many Approaches to Combat
With certain changes made to Lion in VF5R and in VF5FS, his core and more straight-forward game has improved greatly over VF5 Vanilla Lion. I believe this has made Lion's game easier to learn for much of the VF population and it is easier to point to a more standard way of playing Lion.

That said, Lion has always had interesting tools in his toolbox that catered to a variety of playstyles. I believe this is still very much true, maybe even more true as Lion can be played as straight-forward, as indirect, as passive, and as aggressive as the player wants to play, and he can be effective at all of these.

In this post, I am merely listing some of the approaches that I myself implement in my own Lion game. How much I use or refrain from using these approaches depends on the opponent and sometimes even the opponent's character.

Because of this versatility, Lion can be as fun or boring as you would probably want him to be, and still be effective!

Word of Caution: There is a lot of overlap between these "Approaches."

Aggressive/Rushdown Lion
Lion can play the classic VF-game and with his overall power level increased and an easier time punishing low attacks compared to Vanilla, Lion's standard VF theory game is strong. Lion can also force various guessing games up-close. While Lion's fast launchers usually require a counter-hit or a mistake from the opponent, he pretty much has all the mixups covered decently: mids that can extend damage, low attacks that can combo, a quite good (if not great) throw game, a guard-break that ensures a very worthy combo, a decent set of half-circulars and full circulars to give evaders a headache, enough bounds to enable greater combo damage as well as greater carry towards the ring out zone or the wall, and an array of attacks that can hard-counter (as in beat low punch or sabaki certain kicks or punches). Lion also has an aggressive as hell side-rape game (abusing an opponent who is side-turned). Lion has all the tools to mix-up however you personally want to mix-up. All of this adds up to a character who can play incredibly well with aggressive mindgames and 50/50s.

He can do what the aggressive rushdown player wants to do: press the opponent into questions he will answer incorrectly.

On top of this, he can aggressively slip (see Slippery Lion) and it is no secret that Lion can be pretty mean on okizeme which only adds to rushing down with Lion.

Footsie Lion
Lion has so many tools to out-space opponents and encourage the opponent to make record-amounts of mistakes. He can bait everyone including the other master-baiters (sorry I couldn't resist).

A very reactive player playing a footsie Lion is very dangerous--especially offline.

To aid in this, much of Lion's ranges are "slightly off" and he has attacks that cover practically the full spectrum of close, mid, and even long range. A good Lion player who understands the ranges of his full arsenal is incredibly deadly and can punish a lot of range-based mistakes by the opponent.

This style of Lion can avoid much of the difficult guessing games if he wants, to play a more movement and reflex oriented game and can even pile on the damage with a lot of Lion's current tools at the longer ranges.

It does not matter if the opponent has great lows, special highs, or mids at almost any range, Lion can find a way to whiff punish it usually.

(Ring) Positional Lion
It's no secret that Lion has ALWAYS been a very good spacial character in the VF games. He has had 3d movement since the linear VF2!

On top of an annoying footsie game and a lethal capacity for rushing opponents down, Lion has the ability to reposition much of the fight and also carry the opponent long distances towards the wall or the ring out zone. Lion also has an easier time launching people over half-walls.

Lion has always been good with ring position, this hasn't changed ever.

Low-Whore Lion
This is one area where Lion players should tread carefully. Lion has arguably the best low attack arsenal in VF, but all of his low attacks carry a good amount of risk.

That said, these low attacks have their role and how much one implements Lion's low game should depend on the opponent one is facing.

Opponents who fail to block low because of option selects or a fear of mid attacks must beware of Lion's low-whoring abilities.

Slippery Lion
Lion's Evasiveness has always been record-setting annoying for opponents. While his 2_3P uppercut doesn't carry the same amount of BS as in prior VF games, it'll still break the rules on some attacks (just not as many as before). But his 2_3P is just icing on the cake--Lion has a lot of evasive attacks from his momentum-breaking 4P that slides under high attacks and can reset the flow of battle to his various low and mid attacks that can slide under many attacks including mids! He also has hard-counter attacks for everything for when Lion has a real read on the opponent--he can bust up predictable low attacks out-right, sabaki or slip through certain kick attacks, and he can even manually slip through certain predictable offenses.

Lion has always been a slippery character, he's still a damn good slippery character--a good slippery Lion player can steal turns in so many ways.

A note on "Poking" Lion
VF is generally a poking game. If I tried to explain what a poking Lion is, I think I would pretty much just overlap the above approaches to playing Lion.

An aggressive rushdown Lion is more or less poking, slipping, and forcing some hard guessing games through an opponent's comfort and discomfort zones.

A footsie Lion is "out-poking" his opponent from various ranges and taking advantage of Lion's full arsenal having control of almost all ranges in the game.

A low whoring Lion could even low poke his opponent, though at smaller gains without a knockdown.

A slippery Lion is clearly poking using the more evasive attacks in Lion's arsenal.

Because of all of this, I don't really think of "Poking" as an approach to a character in VF. Rather, I think poking is just something you're generally doing in VF because that's how the system is built. Lion just happens to have a lot of tools to make pin-point attacks and encourage opponent whiffs.

These are approaches, they don't have to be "styles"--they are more like approaches to problems
It is my belief that a great Lion can solve problems. In VF5R and VF5FS, Lion is given greater strength in solving problems simply and conventionally.

That said, all these approaches should be a part of every Lion player imo (even if an approach is only a small part). Lion's complete game is such a joy in Virtua Fighter--it is incredibly rewarding to play to Lion's depths. He has a lot of options.

You don't have to be a rushdown, footsie, low-whoring, positional, or slippery Lion player. You can be capable of utilizing all these sets of tools and choose when one of these approaches is best suited to the character matchup and more importantly when they are best suited for your opponent's game. You can make it even just a part of the round.

These are really just a way of categorizing a set of answers into overall packages to work on at your own pace.

We could even categorize different approaches to Lion, but these are the core approaches in my personal Lion handbook/toolbox. I've found it incredibly useful in my Lion play and also very rewarding. Some opponents just see certain moves of Lion that have hurt them the most--but they often miss that I'm tuning my play on these dimensions to eventually find some hard-answers for the questions they are posing.

If I try to explain my current way of playing Lion, which could change on the day... I usually start playing a safer Footsie approach against my opponent to try to encourage mistakes and get a sense of what the opponent is going for. I do play mix-ups here and there, but initially I'm just trying to play it more safe and build up reads. If I see a low weakness in my opponent, I might go after it for a bit to see how long it takes for the opponent to adjust to that, or I may just stay footsie. I do mix in aggression to test the opponent early, but again, I want to understand my opponent--conscious or sub-conscious (sadly, it is often sub-conscious). As I feel my game has adapted to my opponent's, I will go on the rushdown game at some point, at least most of the time, and this is where my reads are truly tested. I am playing Lion in a slippery fashion when I am playing footsie as well as when I am aggressive--I've just found that Lion is so good at stealing turns with slippery attacks that he can create some interesting opportunities to force a real guessing game once the opponent has been stalled in this way. Most opponents are better equipped to deal with a fuzzy guard turn-steal than getting their turn-stolen by a successful attack from disadvantage. However, I cannot let the opponent catch on to this too fast or over-prepare for it, so I'm not always trying to slip him in any one way, often times the slipping is sprinkled here and there based on lighter reads and the overall safety of the slipping attack. Typically, my game does elevate in aggression over the course of the match.

I am not saying I am great at all of this, but this is generally my current approach to playing Lion. I definitely make mistakes, I definitely have bad habits that are hard to fix, and there are situations where I repeatedly answer one-way at my own peril and there are also non-mixups that I do that should be mix-ups (like constantly going for mid instead of something else). Life is constant improvement till the end, VF is like that too

The versatility of Lion is like VF itself, it is incredibly rewarding and keeps on impressing you with how much more you could be trying to do.

Lion (and VF) is more than max-damage ^_^

 

Just a heads up that a mini-guide I've been working on the past 10 days (even with big life changes happening in the middle) is coming together and should be posted sometime this week!

While it is something I could probably simply write up on the spot, I went through A LOT OF TESTING for this mini-guide and I would say about 90% of the time working on this has been testing and re-testing and constantly updating.

I really hope it'll be useful for everyone here in the Lion forums ^_^

Hint: It's not a mini-Guide for playing Lion overall, it's narrowly focused but I think it'll be very helpful to a lot of people.

 

While waiting for Chanchai's guide i just want to say...
41236P is your new GOD

 

Gotta love side-rape starting with a low attack!

 

what Darksoul said. Lion's toe-pick is better than i thought it would be when i first picked up FS. side-turns, gives you a significant advantage, not too punishable on block (i think it's -8 on block or something, not enough for a floater). my only gripe is that it's slow, but if you work it into your game, it gives people fits. and all the mixup possibilities it brings...

 

Well it sideturns (and Lion got one of the best ST games in VF if not the best)
+5 on hit +8 on CH(!)
-16 block so it's risky BUT... the reward you can get from it is huge.
If Lion manages to land the 41236P on CH he can really change the match into his favor
2_6P+K is the most famous followup (followed by 46K+G into combos)
3K PK(P) is my favorite followup cause it keeps them ST and gives Lion his notorious ST mixup games
Good players will sidestep or will block after the 41236P in that point you will need to mixup and new new stuff to the mix like throws, elbows, PKP, 1K(P), OM or even another 41236P

 

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/323356/1/Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdo

Time to wake up guys third post more than two month ago

Also it's good to note that near walls, a standing P wil wall stagger. Hence near the wall, if the opponent is hit by 3K crouching (fearing the 1K+G to wallstagger) and holds guard, the P will not be guardable and will lead to wallstagger into a combo.

 

How does this work I don't understand? 1K+G only wallstaggers when they are sideturned. P only does 9 damage and you need 21+ for a wallstagger. Plus 3K gives +8 on a crouching opponent which means they can duck a P. 3K keeps players sideturned if they are already, but it doesn't leave them sideturned on NH/CH. Ok, so P does wallstagger, on sideturned. But how did they get sideturned in the first place? And what's so good about hitting a crouching opponent with 3K besides the +8?

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1K+G only wallstaggers when they are sideturned</div></div>

Well it's the only moment where you would use this move, 1K+G P is natural combo only on side hit.
All I mentionned above is with opponent side turned obviously, sorry if it wasn't clear enough, I was continuing the discussion of the previous posts discussing the 41236P followups.

The idea is to hit your opponent with 41236P near the wall.
If opponent guards high, 1K+G --> wall stagger
If opponent crouch or attack --> FC 6P+K

Those are the obvious options
but 3 K is also good because:
If they crouch you get +8 an still side turned (You mentionned it won't leave them side turned and I don't have the game to check on the fly but I don't see why it wouldn't, and it does from my exp)

+8 side turned is a situation where a lot of people will freeze blocking for obvious reasons, if they do they can't block stand P and it will wall stagger. They can duck but rememeber they just got hit by 3K crouching and can eat FC3P+K if they duck.

What is good about 3K over FC3P+K is that it is semi circular, if they escape (which is a good option after getting hit by 41236 +P since the high/low guessing is very strong) they have 50% chance to get CH by 3K which leads to wallstagger too.

Also when you are // to the wall, using the catch throw to go to the opponent side and put him back to the wall leads to the same guessing game that after 41236+P. Nasty.

 

And CH.

Ah, gotcha.

When playing in dojo just now it occurred to me that after 41236P CH you can get a guaranteed PP4P near a wall. Hard to hitcheck the CH online but 41236P will go under highs from the first frame it seems, so if you anticipate a high string...boom, no need to hitcheck CH and a sweet wall combo.

What I meant was it wont leave them sideturned if they aren't already.

 

Loving all the contributions to the thread and the Lion activity lately ^_^

One other place to use 1K+G is for safe "bonus damage" on a grounded opponent. You don't pay a penalty when they tech (at least you shouldn't) so it's a safe honest ground poke.

Of course, if you read that they for sure will not get up, then 66KK is appropriate where it applies, and if the full two hits don't apply (or the 66KK has been used earlier in the combo that grounds the opponent) 8P+K also nets nice damage.

* 1K+G if you want to safely get greedy bonus damage.
* 66KK if you want to gamble on them not tech-ing and both hits will work.
* 8P+K if you want to gamble on them not tech-ing and 66KK will not work at all or at least the second hit will not work.

2KK can also be used in some situations and would be a gamble also.

 

Update: That one-move mini-guide is almost done. Well, mini is not the right word, this is more comprehensive. But completing it is being bounced around baby-duty and family tasks this weekend, but the framework has been laid and content has been written. And for the sake of it, I'll probably just link my Evernote dedicated to the topic as a reference so everything would more or less be told two ways, except the Evernote would get updated with unique detailed stuff that I will test later, but honestly, is not as important as what will be in this article/guide/whatever.

Again, this thing is NOT going to be mind-blowing or anything like that. It's just my analysis and a lot of testing with just one move, what one can do with it, where it's good, where it's bad, where it's awful, and my sentiments that it's still a bit underused in the West--and probably an explanation of that too. Will even cover a gimmicky trick with it too.

Most of the time was just re-testing things and doing my best to get it right (but always acknowledging I can get things wrong here and there).

Anyhow, framework and most content is written, but there are a couple blocks left of content to write and I'll try to get to it after today's home-errands ^_^

But I'm not trying to hype this thing up. Just letting you guys know. NOT MIND BLOWING. Just one move, in a lot of detail. But in the hopes that I do something right with the move analysis, I hope it helps people look at moves in perhaps more ways than they are already looking at them--providing more context to how moves are or can be used in Virtua Fighter.

The notes I have been taking for this move though, have taken over 10 pages after printing, but that's really up to whatever font size you're going with

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">41236P will go under highs from the first frame it seems, so if you anticipate a high string...boom, no need to hitcheck CH and a sweet wall combo.</div></div>

Don't forget that even if the move may go under highs from the first frame, it won't hit until the 21st so it will rather hit the high attack in the recovery frame rather than in the exe, hence not giving a counter hit in this kind of situation.
If you wnat to use a low 43P will work better imo (combo on any hit).
If you duck under high attacks for me 3P+K into throw or into PK + advantage is the best punish imo. Near wall you can go for 3P+K, PP4P. Personnaly I have a hard time spacing the PPP to get the full combo so I usually go for simplier stuff

41236P CH is not that hard to hitcheck, it will rather happen if you do it on tech rollers due to the semicircular properties.