Lion vs Pai help

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Munki, Mar 21, 2002.

  1. Munki

    Munki Member

    Hello, I am definately new to this board, and am also (fairly) new to VF4. I have started playing VF4 PS2 with some of my buddies, and I am having problems beating a Pai player. I use Lion. I would consider both of us as beginner to intermediate skill level with the game.

    The problem is that they continusely use low attacks, or PPPdK (I think that is the combo). I don't have a huge problem with the punch rush, the main issue is that I can't find any decent way to launch an assault. The only quick low hits I have seen with Lion so far don't stun my opponent very long (allowing him to renew his assault, which is usually faster than I can recover). The mid moves that I use don't come off quick enough (his high punches usually beat me down), and of course my high's usually go over his head.

    The only way I ever win is to get some distance between the two of us, but I am not always able to do this. He gets into a definate pattern, and I can usually block enough of them, but then I rarely get an attack off. I tried throws, but none of the moves he is doing has long enough recovery times, so I always get a fist in the face.

    Any suggestions on busting out with some good damage / knockdowns from a crouch?
    Thanks for helping out a n00b!
     
  2. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Against a Pai who likes to pppd+k or low kick/sweep, try low punch. Once your low punch hits, especially if it interrupts Pai's attack, you have a significant advantage. From there you may consider Lion's from crouch f+p, which will do his rising hand drill. If that move interrupts Pai's next attack, you've got yourself a little float combo, an easy follow-up is bb+k, p+k, f+k. If your opponent starts to get wise and starts blocking or evading after the low punch, do Lion's from crouch throw (f+pg), then follow that up with a b,f+kg. Also, kind of scrubby, but something I use quite often, after the low punch hits, follow up with a sweep - d+kg.

    Remember, if your opponent likes to pppd+k, block the sweep low, then follow up with a sidekick, which will stagger your opponent. Then dash in (standing or crouch dash) or follow up with a bb+k, p+k, or b+pk for a combo.

    Also, don't forget b+pk (don't charge it though) which will hit Pai's during their P rush.

    Still, I find the problem with most beginners who have difficulty in situations like yours isn't necessarily their ability to retaliate after blocking a move, or even anticipating a move and countering it, but that you're so busy attacking it's your moves which are interrupted by your opponent. In that regard it's fruitful to watch what your opponent actually does and either block or counter it by anticipating it.

    -Jason
     
  3. Munki

    Munki Member

    Thanks Jason!

    I just played a handfull of matches on my break, and I didn't do so bad. I definately still need to work on reading and anticipation, but I am trying to not be quite so all-out offensive. The crouch f+p worked great, but the throw was difficult to work in. Since he just was continuosly jumping to the next combo, he would always knock me out of my throw.

    I appreciate the help.
    Man this game is great! The last 3d fighter I got into this much was Soul Calibur. I can't wait to get really good at this game (or at least better than I am now)

    Oook
     
  4. SG-Lion

    SG-Lion Well-Known Member

    There a few good Pai players at Bugis in Singapore. I, myself, use Lion. I agreed with Jason on the handling Pai pppd+K. For my case, sometime I d+P or sometime d/b+K+G (this is a bit risky). If the distance is not so close, the bb+K, able to float Pai as well. Overall game, I have to be fast enough to jammed Pai's move and followed with proper combos.

    Ohh.. one more thing, switch between d+P and f+K (Lion's knee) to jam Pai, it's quite effective. From my experience (I'm on Ver.B), if I do d+P, and Pai does the mid knife-hand, I got jammed. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    SG-Lion
     
  5. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the world of VF4!

    Jason and SG-Lion's responses were generally good and probably what you would want to work on for now. It's not at all overwhelming material, but it's good enough to start out on.

    When learning to read your opponents, I generally go for a top-down approach. Generally learn the classifications of the attacks: high, mid, low, throw. Understand the properties of the attacks, how they can be defended against. And for a good while look at the moves like this.

    Sometimes it's a bit too much to try to predict the exact attack your opponent will go for, but you will generally find it easier to think about the attack levels first. For example, many scrubs and beginners use only high and low attacks, I think this is generally because they're only looking at the attack's speed. If they certainly only do high and low attacks, you generally defend low because that will handle both situations. A step up from there and they will probably start using mids, this is where the game starts to advance and you guys should see a good amount of imporvement in a few days when you reach this stage unless you're already there.

    I'll simply list the order that I feel is appropriate to learn on. Transitioning between each stage can be very fast or very slow depending on the person. Patience is a virtue, and if your improvements or understanding is slow in these cases, don't worry about it, it might be a new thing for you so it just takes some time.

    *Remember, I am referring to this list as a recommendation, not fact. It's a personal theory, not an established one. And everyone can take their own path... But the idea of this list is to breakdown the attacks to a simple level where you can handle them, and then slowly work your way to the specifics. The listed properties are generally in regard to your opponent's attacks.

    Chanchai's Idea of Looking at Attacks in Order:
    1) Attack level
    High, Mid, Low, Throw.
    The attack level of the incoming attack dictates the general way of defending the attack, that's why it's important to understand this first when learning to defend.

    2) Range of Attack
    Use general distances such as close range, mid range, long range when figuring this out, it's intuitive however and don't spend too much time worrying about it, you'll get it after awhile.
    The range of the attack helps you to understand your space bubble, allowing you to apply a stronger range game. This follows attack level because the rules of defense are solid and knowing the attack ranges simply extends your understanding of defense, it doesn't generally beat it in a game like VF.

    3) Speed of the Attack
    This is the execution time of the attack, how long will it be before the attack actually hits?
    When you become comfortable with defending properly against all attack levels, and you feel comfortable with the range of an attack; then knowing the speed of the incoming attack can help you to advance your knowledge and experience into figuring out what you can do instead.

    4) Attack Specifics
    This comes later on after you develop a general understanding of VF and you can handle a normal flow game. Attack specifics include just about everything about the attack, how it results, its weaknesses, etc... This comes with experience so be patient on learning this. From a beginner's perspective, it's probably just information overload until the basics are understood.

    Hope this helps... It is at least how I look at the anticipation/prediction game. There are a lot of fundamentals implied in the above... Namely learning how to properly defend those attack levels is a must. The flow of the game is another fundamental which you can probably find material on if you lookup "flow of the game" or something like that. Happy learning!

    -Chanchai
     
  6. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    The crouch f+p worked great, but the throw was difficult to work in. Since he
    just was continuosly jumping to the next combo, he would always knock me out of my throw.


    At the level you're at right now, I think you might want to forget about minor countering with throws until your get your friend to block your low punch --> drill punch etc. If he's continually attacking, the only time you'll be able to throw is when you block a move that is throw counterable. You can check out the VF4 counters tables at this site's home page. Even though the tables are for Ver B (arcade) they are a good starting point.

    Wait until your friend learns about df+K, df+P and uf+K(K). Then you'll have to worry about Pai's mid attacks too, and you'll start having a difficult time against a very aggressive Pai who has a bit of a notion of how attack levels work.
     
  7. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    Just to supplement what Chanchai wrote:

    Other attack properties to note are:

    1-Linear/Circular/Half Circular
    2-Sabaki
    3-How to rise

    1. Attacks that are fast are generally linear. Thus they are easily dodged. Dodging is an advanced skill and marks the a new level of skill. "(u|d)+P+K+G".

    This brings a new level of guessing. Rather than the traditional High/Mid/Low/Throw options you have
    Linear/Circular/Throw vs Dodge attack/Dodge and Combo/Dodge Throw escape.

    From there there are many options and risks involved.

    Here some examples:
    -Circular attacks are usually vulnerable when blocked but are usually powerful. A circular attack will defeat dodging.

    -Half Circular Attacks can be dodged only in one direction.

    -Most Dodge Attacks can be thrown when blocked and most will hit mid.

    -Linear attacks are easily dodged if you time it correctly.

    -You cannot dodge a throw.
    -You cannot be thrown when attacking. Thus if you input dodge+PKG before the opponent inputs throw you will hit them.


    2.Sabaki Attacks

    Lion's Meteor Punch is a Sabaki attack.
    "qcb+P"
    It'll parry and defeat HP, ME, HK, MK, and result in a stomach crumble for a free "ff+KK" combo.

    You'll hear a scratching sound if you successfully "sabaki" an attack. Certain moves have a certain window of time that it'll parry an attack.

    Sabaki brings another type of guessing game. In Lion's case Its HP,ME, HK, MK, Kn.
    H=High
    M=Medium
    P=Punch
    K=Kick
    Kn=Knee
    ME= Mid Elbow
    SM= Special Mid (ie, somersault kicks)

    Note that Lion's Meteor Punch doesn't not sabaki "LP,LK,MP,SM" and crescent and non-reversible attacks.

    Obviously if sabaki is used in anticipation of particular attacks you can get lots of damage and combo chances. However more importantly is that you're limiting the opponent to particular options. Although you can get thrown if your sabaki is blocked (ie Lion's sabaki). Thus there are also risks involved with sabaki but better reward overall.


    3.How to rise

    Knowing how to rise is also a particular skill:
    -Mid/Low rising kick
    -Side roll / normal rise
    -Tech Roll and Quick rise

    Adding speed or delay to the above is important to avoid certain vulnerabilities in each of the above.
     
  8. Munki

    Munki Member

    Wow, thanks for all the advice guys! This will keep me busy for awhile. I practiced alot last night with my evade / quick get up (is this what the Tech Roll is? The P+K+G when hitting the ground?). Also, this thread has started to make me use Lion as more of a interupting / poking player as opposed to an all out offensive guy. I feel my game improved quite a bit last night, thanks to these new techniques / theories. I find that I generally have been having better matches (at least against the Kumite opponents), and managed to get to 2nd Dan last night! I even managed to beat an 8th Dan Lau, which I felt quite proud of doing (made me feel like I am on the right path).

    I have one other question about Lion...
    The uf+P+G throw, does it have some sort of follow up / link? When he is sitting on the opponents chest, it just looks like you should be able to something (like a punch to the face or something). I can't find any mention of this in any move list / Training, so am I just being hopeful?

    Thanks for all the help guys!

    Oook
     
  9. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Tech Roll is the roll-to-the-side quick get up (u+pkg or d+pkg).

    As for the u/f+pg throw - it's actually one of my favorite moves, as Yupa can attest to. There's no follow-up - it's just a weak (45?) point throw, but it has a couple of interesting characteristics.

    One, I believe, though I could be wrong, that it has special properties as a wall throw.

    Two, it is the only throw that ends with u/f+pg, so it is pretty much never escaped.

    and Three, if you look at Lion's hands, you'll see he cops a cheap feel off of the female characters, which makes it my throw of choice against Sarah.

    Hope that helps,

    -Jason
     
  10. Freud

    Freud Well-Known Member

    confirm that it is a wall throw when opponent 's back is to wall..
    regarding the follow up to the uf+P+G..i think what was seen and familiar is Kage's ??? throw...which also jumps onto the opponent in the same manner but he slaps them twice.
     
  11. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Actually that's what makes Lion's u/f+pg throw so unique - Kage's is a catch throw, as is Wolf and Sarah's u/f+pg's. But in that there is no follow-up, that is correct.

    -Jason
     
  12. Sausage Man

    Sausage Man Active Member

    Kage's u/f+P+G is a catch throw, Lion's is not.
     
  13. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    'good knockdowns and floats from crouch'
    2P=d+P computer keyboard number pad
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/FloatStrings.html>http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/FloatStrings.html</a>
    <font color=black>The Brotherhood of Lion</font color=black>
     
  14. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: Lion's breast grab vs Pai

    kenji-san indicates that the following may work for the nimble advanced Lion player's like Jason, FeixaQ, kbcat.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    uf+P+G->f,f->d+P+K+G->Pounce
    <><><><><><><>and<><><><><>Mantis leaps on Cicada<><><><><><>
    uf+P+G->f,f->d+P+K+G->b,b+K->P+K->b,f+P+K,P,P
    9P+G>66>2P+K+G>44K>P+K>46P+KPP
     

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