Lion vs Taka Arashi

Ive been playing my nephew with this game (we are both new to VF) I play as Lion and he was messing with Taka... When my Lion gets Taka down, I can go into a loop using his ground pound/8P move forever. My nephew said he was rolling ASAP but they would still connect every time. I done this the whole match. Has anyone else seen or done this? I thought it was a little cheap.

Loving the game BTW.

 

I think he just needs to roll to the side (mash on d+G or G). Maybe he is constantly trying to do rising attack and thinks that is rolling?

I will test it out for your sake ^_^, but I am very certain that such a loop is not guaranteed.

 

Cool. I would mess around with it more myself but I don't own it yet.

 

The Taka matchup is an important topic because if on the general level VF is a really systems oriented game where the matchup matters less than the system knowledge and general use of your character... then Taka is the one extra matchup you really need to learn.

(Tangent: Granted, I do hold the general belief VF is system first, character matchups later--but opponent character knowledge has become a bigger part of the equation in the current VF with almost every character having their way of dishing huge momentum swinging damage)

Following are just my thoughts written on the spot about fighting Taka. They are taken from a conversation I had with another Lion player and I hope others find it useful. Again, it's just my thoughts on the spot and despite the authoritative tone, I cannot guarantee the accuracy

It is also probably pretty incomplete, I haven't fought the Taka players from Japan in-depth or even analyzed Taka videos much--it's based on solid Taka players who have had less than a summer's experience playing as Taka, though some do watch and research the Japanese Taka players.

But at least on the US level (especially the regional level, offline and online) I have fought against a lot of Takas.

So here's what I wrote....

Chanchai on Fighting Taka

Taka is a funny character because he's extremely simple. He's basically super-Jeffry in a way... or at least Super Classic Jeffry. You play very good, solid, basic VF with him and you do very well.

The reason he's hard to fight against is that he's a completely new matchup to learn simply because you have to relearn your combos and they will almost always (but not always) do less damage.

The key to fighting Taka is to play really good (read: Moral) VF lol. But also know why he's so rewarded for playing basic VF.

4P+K is a bastard of a move. This is the #1 move you must understand about Taka imo. It's like a wimpy looking upppercut/slap. Practice it, learn the combo, and realize how stupid good it is and why. But I'll list some of the reasons and applications:

• Taka gets like 60+ damage if this move hits.
• 16 frame mid attack with 3 active hit frames that's safe (this doesn't sound like much now, but it adds up to the other things).
  • For now, the reason this is important is because Taka only has to be at +4 to use it without thinking, and he can still use it easily in general. I mean he hits you with a basic poke, he's got that situation. He blocks your low punch, he's got that situation. Etc...
• While this attack is totally linear, it will beat a lot of evasive attacks (like Lion's 4P) and because it does knockdown, Lion can't parry this despite it looking so weak. Yes, these are Lion matchup reasons why it's good.
• He can delay the hell out of the followup, think Lion's 4K,P in Vanilla. That's around how long he can delay it.
• And now... the secret sauce that makes this move god-like when combined with the above: HE ONLY HAS TO HIT WITH ANY ATTACK IN THE STRING TO DO A 60+ DAMAGE COMBO.
  • It's good enough that the first hit is a really good mid that is likely to hit. And can whiff punish when close enough, super easily.
  • If he hits with the first one, even if he max-delays the second hit, he still gets the 60+ damage combo. He doesn't have to rush, he could just do 4P+K (max delay) P, and if any of those two hits, he has the combo.
  • Because of the amount of delayability, you should not even plan to evade the second part of the string, and if you evade the first part, then you should really think about blocking the second one regardless of what you think you can do here--the delay can still hit you easily out of whatever you try to do after evading the first attack.

Again, 60+ big attack, easy to do and whiff punish with, easy to tell a beginner to make it their flowchart option when you hit with a poke. And if the opponent evades the first, you can probably just delay the second hit or g-cancel and do whatever you want asap. This move is crazy strong for something so unrisky hehe. And people underestimate it all the time, they try to evade the second hit when it's so delayable. They try to low punch, but both attacks are mids.

The correct thing to do if Taka barely whiffs the first hit or you block the first hit is to simply stand and guard and hold throw escape, and learn how long he can delay because that tells you when you can get active again. But imo, don't even try to beat it, just be patient and let it pass.

Another way to look at 4P+K and Moral play with Taka is this. If Taka plays Moral with 4P+K, it's like he's playing with a sidekick that, if the opponent abare's or messes up on defense, he gets a free 60+ damage.
And because of the threat of 4P+KP; then 4P+K --> Throw becomes a truly valid flowchart once the opponent realizes they should always stand and guard and hold a throw escape if they're still standing after Taka just did 4P+K.

I don't know Tekken at all, but I suspect that any and probably all Tekken characters wish they had an uppercut like this!

Be careful with your backdash. Backdashing is good in this game, but the risk/reward against Taka is skewed so you must not be predictable with your backdashing.
My tip: until you get amazing at reading Taka players and also not letting them read your backdash habits, then always evade-cancel your backdashes if you use them. This limits your backdashing to only really punishing attacks like Taka's 33P or other big linear swings. This usually cuts out things like backdash --> see whiffed attack -->whiff punish (ie. 44K). But at least you've mitigated one of the biggest sources of his damage.

What is that big source of damage? Taka's standing K will butt-stagger you like normal, but this kick has long reach but it's not just that. Taka has big swings that are guaranteed to hit when you're butt staggered, even if you're really far away usually. And he ends up having a combo that does 60% of your life from one standing K while you were backdashing. Never let the 60% damage happen to you. You can lose a round because you back-dashed (without evade cancelling) twice!

Taka's Throw Game is really 50/50 with the proverbial 5P+G.
Taka does the same high damage off of throw whether it's HCB+P+G or HCF+P+G. HCB+P+G is a combo throw so at least the Taka player has to not mess that combo up to keep the damage par with HCF+P+G. If it helps you remember which throw is which, Lion's HCB+P+G throw is a jumping on the chest throw, while Taka's HCB+P+G throw is a "GET ON MY CHEST," hugging, combo throw

For wakeup situations, learn Taka's stomp move just so you can low block it on sight. I think it's 2/8K+G, but it's a very slow and very big stomp he might do on okizeme. He gets a free combo but it's slow enough you should low block it on reaction. Though I am usually late. The evade direction depends on which direction Taka inputted.

Chanchai's List of Things to Do Against Taka

• Play Moral-Style like your life depended on it.
• Don't forget simple options like 2P (hit) --> Throw.
• When Taka's on the ground, hit him with as many (relatively) safe things as you can think of.
• See if he is punishing your low attacks. In all honesty, he should; but if he is not and the lows work against him, then use them.
• If lows don't work predictably, then you're probably going to want to use your throw game against a good Taka because only pressuring with mids is not going to cut it and there's only so much 6P+K+G --> P+K he's going to let you do. Your throw strategy and selection depends on the Taka player.
  • To clarify: I am assuming you're mixing mids. Just that if you're getting punished for low attacks, your mixup against a standing and blocking taka becomes throws because the lows are risky when your opponent is punishing them. And while Lion is the low attack master, Lion's low attacks are very punishable.
• If Taka does 4P+K, stand and hold throw escape-guard until he cannot enter P for the second attack.
  • Learn the max-delay timing and even train against variously timed recordings to help you with this. The better you know the timing, the better you know your danger/safety zone with 4P+K,P.
• Learn some Anti-Taka combos, the 46K one is good but it's tricky to get good at using it under pressure.
  • When you block Taka's 2P+K,P or 1P+K (I think this is it) you can do the following combo but it takes practice:
  • 46K --> 6_P(G) (this should be delayed a bit and your character should step forward a bit while doing the pre-buffered 6 input) --> 66P+KP.
• As you play him learn his strings and definitely whiff punish wherever you see a whiff.
• Don't use backdash too much for whiff-punishing.
• It's okay to do stairstepping or backdash with 4425.
• Taka's 2P+K,P is not a true combo on normal hit. Only on MC is the second hit guaranteed (have not tested mC though). So if you get hit normally by one low chop at the shins, you can still block the second one and punish with a mid. 46K combo is my favorite, but until you've practiced it in Dojo, a simple 8KK is fine. 8K can also be used against the second chop to hop over it and hit Taka with MC.
• Wall combos are good against Taka, so is staggering him and outpoking him in moral fashion.

Did not intend to write an anti-taka guide, but I really hope this helps. BTW, Taka (as far as I've fought) really is super simple, it's just how strong his options are that make him so good. But I do think that there are depths to his game that can be and should be explored, but you can do so well playing very basic VF with him.

 

awesome guide Chanchai.

i will point this out: playing moral with Lion is of paramount importance against Taka. i force myself to stop the habits of overusing 2KK (or 2KK+G) and 1K. against Taka, i usually poke quickly and go for throws. the only Takas i've struggled against were those run by FlyMike, de_kroet, and Rodnutz, but only because they're really good and understand Taka's inherent weaknesses in speed. every other Taka for the most part i've destroyed with quick poke mixups and copious throws.

 

There's one important point I left out: Taka's 4P+K, P is -15 on guard. You gotta punish it!
KK is the easiest to do on reaction.

Pre-buffer 44K combo (Taka version) works but pre-buffer the 44 until you see that second uppercut/slap (just keep repeatedly pressing 44) and be ready to press K when you block that second uppercut slap. And definitely hit K if you see the throw animation (easier offline than online).

 

Super useful info Chanchai!

 

Just a thought, but.. (Regarding the pre-buffering 44444 while holding G plan) If Taka's smart enough, he can then switch to 4P+K --> low attack against this Lion tactic. But honestly, I'd be happy to make Taka come to that conclusion and prove to me he'll do that.

That said, doing the 44K on reaction to a throw animation is tough online, compared to offline. In offline, I do things like attack a throw animation when I'm kind of expecting it as an option, but honestly I can almost never do this online... But I really believe that a lot of people are fast enough to do it. It's just been really hard for me to do.

Update: The safer (and more online friendly) alternative for many is probably to go for the throw escape on reaction to the throw animation (guessing between back or forward unless this Taka loves to use neutral). Again, in offline I have an easier time attacking throws than in online... And it's really up to the person. But it sucks to get thrown by Taka. It really sucks.

 

It is by far Lion's worst matchup imo
Why ? because Taka shuts down a lot of Lion’s strengths, the most important one being his Ring out potential, the second being his damage that suffers more than some characters imo (some risky moves won’t even give a combo) , the third his Lion’s low game will not be as efficient.
With Taka you will have to give up on a lot of damage (often 30%-40% of your combo damage) and won’t carry him as far as the other char so ring outs are to be forgotten.


The Good:
·Hcb+P+G, heavy pounce is very hard to escape for Taka which makes a 82pts throw for lion
·6PP, 66KK he can't tech between the two, tested in training mode but for some reason sometimes my opponent manages to tech in real match, still don't know why exactly, but it seems like a legit combo. Remember that when blocking his lows. But since 6PP cannot be hitchecked and is unsafe on blocked this is not THAT good.
·PKP will natural combo on mC and MC
·41236P mind games will work the same


The Bad:
·FC6 P+G, aka Lion’s best throw, will do poor damage on the fat guy, you are limited to 66KK, it becomes his weakest throw with the neutral P+G.
·43+P won’t knock him down, thus no more combo, instead you’ve got +6
·1K won’t knock him down either, on counter the best I found is 66P+K,P. 3PP will not knockdown.
·Your P+K and 46K combo will do poor damage (-30% discount), 33P ch will do 60.
·Almost All combos ending with 6PP won’t work on him which means you won’t carry him to the ring edge as you do with other chars
·The guard break will give you only 52pts (-35% discount), and won’t wall carry
·8K won’t give you a true combo even on CH


The Ugly:
Well Taka himself… His throws will do 80+, 4P+K is ridiculously good, and he has good lows that Lion will not punish with very good damage. On the other hand he can punish all lows with 4P+K he doesn’t even have to adapt his punishes lol. In this matchup he even got an edge in the ring out department where Lion usually shines.


The strategy:
Overall this is an uphill battle imo, Taka has to make 3 good choices and you’re done, usually Lion need something like 4 guard openings with mids or throw but this time you’ll need more.You deal 35% less and he has the best throws in the game and very good damage. The key is you’re defense, if you’re not good with yutori or E-TE this will be very hard. You also have to know your taka specific combos (well they’re usually pretty short…)
Try to impose your rhythm, poke him a lot and escape a bit more than against other chars (if you can E-TE).


Tips:
·If you get caught in 4P+K (blocked) mind games, use yutori or E-TE don’t just guard. Or reverse nitaku with 3P+K if you think he will throw. If you block the second part make him pay with 3P+K,63214P+G, pounce.
·Most of his moves are linear, or can be escape toward stomach. Only 4P will track to stomach, if you are in the middle of the ring it is not that dangerous.
·4 is the preferred throw escape direction against him, because 41236+P+G won’t give him the tech roll mind games and doesn’t carry to the wall.
·Use 63214P+G throw followed by pounce until the opponent proves he can escape either the throw and/or the pounce
·Use 41236P and know your options out of it
·Taka will use a lot of P, and 2P to try to fish for CH and apply nitaku. Use your high crushing moves like 4PP or anti 2P moves like 8K.8K won’t give a combo even on CH but if Taka doesn’t “just ukemi” you can add damage (can't remember what atm :/) so it's worth a try.
·Taka likes to follow combos with 3P+K, 4K+G on the ground if he thinks you won’t tech roll. If you tech and dodge the 3P+K you can punish with throw, PKP or may be even 3P+K (not sure on this one). You can also tech between 3P+K and 4+K+G.
·After FC6P+G, 66KK combo use P+K, if Taka doesn’t tech it will OTG. Mix this with 41236P (pseudo meaty he can dodge if he techs asap but he won’t be able to use jump Kà to avoid the low) or another throw.
·43P= +6 so you’ve got a nitaku with 33P or throw.

Things I need to check:
-If taka doges and goes for (side) 4P+K,P and you block you are still side turned but it may be –15 because it’s a 2 part move so it won’t have the frame bonus.

 

PKP is an ok punish, but 3P+K followed by P,K or throw are better at -15.
KK gives good oki, not as godlike as ending combo in 6PP but still very good.

 

this. KK even ends combos with more damage i think (not much more, like a few points but still)

 

btw to contribute to this thread more, i took on Shidosha's Taka recently and almost won. it went to 5 rounds (and he pummeled me pretty good in the 5th round) and i'll just point this out: Lion can really take advantage of his 6P+K+G mixups against Taka because of his bulk and slowness. don't get out of hand with it but it should be a nice choice to consider. also, unless you have a very good mix of low-mid or low-high, don't overuse Lion's lows. Taka can be susceptible to some low shenanigans, sure, but if you're throwing out a low every other move, they'll pick up on it and thoroughly punish you.

TL;DR: work on stance and other general mixups, don't overuse your lows (especially 2K+G or 2K)

 

Ok some new tech/info to fight one of Lion's supposedly worst match up (at least for me ^^)

6PP is a natural combo on RCH against Taka
It seems like no big deal at first but the fact that 6PP, into either 66KK in closed or 44K,P+K is a combo for 60ish damage on him gives Lion a good/easy command reverse nitaku.
It kindah becomes the best punish against 4P+KP, it's also good to abare out of P throw that Taka players love so much ^^.

Now where it gets better is that usually after combos ending in 66KK (aka almost all combos against Taka) you have 2 meaties that act as a mid/low mixup on TR with 41236P and P+K !
Where it gets EVEN better is that it also work as an OS if Taka stays on the ground, both moves will hit him OTG.

41236P as to be inputed ASAP after 66KK, for P+K sometimes it needs a 1FK.

 

Great posts here!!!

 

Damn, Chibitox, that's awesome tech!

 

Old thread, but whatever. I think Lion fights Taka pretty good, mostly due to Lion's already good tools against everyone else. His safetyness is his main advantage IMO since Taka puts the hurt on his small ass if he can manage to launch Lion, but since Lion doesn't have a lot of launch punishable moves on block aside from lows he's mostly safe, Taka's only other options for launching Lion is to either backdash a move, which also won't be happening due to his slow ass movement and Lion's reach, or to evade and punish which is a little bit more probable since Lion's tracking to his other side (stomach?) isn't all that hot. All Lion needs to win this matchup IMO is to get his sideturned game going, which is easy, watch out hcb+P+G throw, take his frames and nitaku and punish Taka's mistakes, little things like 6PP giving a combo are very good against him and can make him play that much more sloppy, the risk of doing that move out of the blue isn't very high against Taka since his jab punishment is mostly shit. All in all Lion walks over Taka without much difficulty.

Just my 2 €-cents.