Lion's framestats, pushback, and counters

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by feixaq, Feb 18, 2002.

  1. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Tested out some counters to Lion based on framestats available at the following URL:
    <a target="_blank" href=http://lion_iinkai.tripod.co.jp/waza.html>http://lion_iinkai.tripod.co.jp/waza.html</a>
    (Thanks to LittleWild for the link!)

    Firstly, here are some framestats for Kage counters:
    Throw -- 8f
    Px -- 12f
    Hop Kick -- 13f
    Elbow -- 14f
    Sidekick / Heelkick / f+P+KP+K -- 16f

    (1) f+P+K,b (-10f)
    Completely uncounterable even though it's -10f because Lion moves back after f+P+K so the throw won't connect

    (2) b,f+K+G,d+P (-12f)
    Lion recovers facing forward. Throw and P counterable.

    (3) b,f+K+G,df+P (-4f)
    Lion recovers facing back. Not P counterable if Lion holds G after the move (turns around and guards). Not throw counterable if Lion does TT attack.

    Corollary #1: Lion should always use (3) in lieu of (2)
    Corollary #2: Since P executes in 12f, this means that turning around from back exposed to regular guard takes less than 8f.

    (4) f+PP (-12f)
    Not throw-counterable, because even though it's -12f, there's a fair amount of pushback. But it's P-counterable if you happen to be close enough when you block.

    (5) f+K+G (-12f)
    Similar to (4)

    (6) f+P+KK (-13f)
    Completely uncounterable; massive pushback

    (7) db+K+G (-10f)
    Lion recovers facing back. Throw counterable. P/hop kick/elbow counterable even if Lion tries to turn around and guard by holding G after the move. But, not heelkick counterable.

    Corollary #3: Back throws also take 8f to execute
    Corollary #4: From back exposed, turning around and guarding takes either 4f or 5f ex.

    Why? Assume turning around and guarding takes x frames. Then:
    - elbow (14f) <= db+K+G (-10f) + turn around guard (-x f)
    - heelkick (16f) > db+K+G (-10f) + turn around guard (-x f)

    Hypothesis: Moving from stance to regular guard for most characters takes around 4-5f as well.

    (8) db+PP (-17f)
    Not throw counterable because Lion recovers low, but hop kick/elbow/heelkick counterable.

    (9) b,df+P (-15f)
    Not throw counterable because Lion recovers low. Hop kick and elbow counterable when blocked close up, but iffy hit detection because of pushback.
     
  2. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Its not very useful to keep stating frames states. Till u see my 9th Dan Akira. Even the japs dun care so much abt frames. Its all abt defend that's winning the game.
     
  3. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    LOL you haven't even played me, how would you know where my skill level's at? Fuck off, you piece of shit.
     
  4. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    some people like the stats. And a lot of people use the stats to gain competitive knowledge since they describe your advantage or disadvantage; any competent player has the potential to improve their game with a knowledge of the frame stats and while some may disregard that information as being non essential FeixaQ has done a service to those who have a desire to read them, by posting them.

    In terms of strict usefullness quoting stats ranks a good mile above quoting your dan.

    GE
     
  5. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Its all abt defend that's winning the game.

    Actually, a lot of "it" is about finding out what moves can and can't be countered by punches or throws. Frames are helpful in knowing what attack, when blocked, will virtually guarantee an mC punch or throw. It's also helpful in knowing which moves can be abused.

    re: FeixaQ: Thanks again for the info.

    Ooops./versus/images/icons/blush.gif Sorry, GodEater. Your post sums it up nicely.
     
  6. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    Though the Japanese may not directly use exact framestats, lots of experience gives them the same knowledge as framestats.

    Exact precise knowledge framestats may make the difference between two evenly matched opponents. Especially at the higher levels of play.

    You know when to attack, defend and throw. Which moves are faster/stronger at certain situations. That knowledge is framestats gained through trial and error through experience and experimentation.

    Knowledge is important as well as application of that knowledge.

    A 9th dan Akira is indeed impressive but you might be able to improve even more if you applied accurate framestats to your offense and defense.
     
  7. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Well, i can at least do this while u play.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    What, get buttfucked by your dad? Is that why you're posting at 3.30am Singapore time? Because your ass is so sore you can't lie down?
     
  9. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Hey kid, do u use eastern time while somewhere else? Check wats the time in tokyo now.
    Low punching americans studying frame stats... Still LP. Maybe thats wat americans are built for. FeixaQ, go Jap and get your ass kick. However, there's still time to study wat u've
    post so far.[​IMG]
     
  10. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    4.30am Japan time. Dumb fuck, you're even more stupid than I thought.
     
  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I give much props to FeixaQ for his contributed information and experiments here. It's great to see some experiments & analysis here, and FeixaQ has provided/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Anyways, I hope a lot of the goods weren't terribly damaged by all the garbage that has been thrown around lately.

    FeixaQ, thanks! Very much appreciated.

    On a side note, "ignorance and pride" can only get you so far, yet not far at all.

    -Chanchai
     
  12. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    that's right. Its always a habit to get up early here. i guess u'r the dumbfuck.
     
  13. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Ah, I see. I guess guys who give blowjobs for a living have to start work at 4.30am just to make ends meet.
     
  14. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    stop stop stop

    this isn't even an entertaining flame war. Where the hell is Rich?

    GE
     
  15. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    You'r always talking and talking. How good r u. I guess ur a nasty politician, just keep talking abt your stats and ppl just luv u.
     
  16. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    Re: stop stop stop

    How much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
     
  17. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Maybe it's because I've actually *contributed* to this forum and the VF community at large, unlike you? Gee, "contribution", that must be a hard word for you to understand.

    As for skills? I don't claim to be an Emperor-level player, but I'm pretty sure I can hold my own, ask Alan or Zhifeng or Danny or Kiat when I played with them in Singapore in December. Or Colin Leong or Vincent Chew back in the VF2 days. Or Jason Cha or CrewNYC or Omaha Jeffry or Segaduck in the US.

    You, on the other hand, are complete bogus. You've never bothered to show up for any of the Singapore meetings, hell you've stood several of my friends up, so for all I know, you could be talking out of your ass about your skills, or lack thereof. 9th dan Akira? Did you steal a VF.net card from a Japanese player while being his little Geisha boy?
     
  18. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    (3) b,f+K+G,df+P (-4f)
    Lion recovers facing back. Not P counterable if Lion holds G after the move (turns around and guards). Not throw counterable if Lion does TT attack.

    I think of this in a way like Kage's u/f+k+g, with the slow execution time of the b,f+k+g. I think I'll try and incorporate it a bit more, as it does seem a relatively safe move (if you're not in close range quick attack mode) with a possibly rewarding pay off. Actually I'm curious as to the real dynamic's of Kage's u/f+k+g, if you can elbow stagger a low p if you block it.

    (4) f+PP (-12f)
    Not throw-counterable, because even though it's -12f, there's a fair amount of pushback. But it's P-counterable if you happen to be close enough when you block.

    (5) f+K+G (-12f)
    Similar to (4)

    (6) f+P+KK (-13f)
    Completely uncounterable; massive pushback

    #6 We've known for a while - unfortunately, it's piddly pay off so not really worth doing, unless you're in a ringout situation (where I think you'd rather do f+pp as it's easier, pushes back about the same amount of time, and most importantly, faster execution.)

    #5 - you sure it's not throw counterable? I'm sure you've tested it out, but it's a surprise to me that the push back is any worse than say Akira's dblplm. Also #4, in situations where it's P counterable, it isn't throw counterable?

    (8) db+PP (-17f)
    Not throw counterable because Lion recovers low, but hop kick/elbow/heelkick counterable.

    Ugh. Elbow counterable? Time to start just doing one P.

    -Jason
     
  19. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Actually I'm curious as to the real dynamic's of Kage's u/f+k+g, if you can elbow stagger a low p if you block it.

    Okay, Kage framestats are in thanks to kbcat. uf+K+G results in neutral situation when blocked, so Kage's d+P (12f) will beat out the blocker's elbow (14f, typically) or even an 11f punch (because Kage autoducks when using d+P).


    f+K+G - you sure it's not throw counterable? I'm sure you've tested it out, but it's a surprise to me that the push back is any worse than say Akira's dblplm.

    Well, how I test throw counterability is by recording f+K+G ~ PPP and f+K+G ~ d+P sequences, and in both cases, I cannot throw Lion after the f+K+G. Whether I try to quick dash forward first before throwing, or just hammer P+G after blocking, I get hit by the PPP or d+P.


    Also f+PP, in situations where it's P counterable, it isn't throw counterable?

    Nope. This is one of the weird ones. Although it's -12f, the throw has too short a reach, but the PPb+P moves Kage forward just enough to hit (and again, only if Kage blocks Lion's move really close up).
     
  20. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey Chris, thanks for the analysis!! Interesting and insightful stuff.

    Anyway, I just wanted to highlight:

    Also f+PP, in situations where it's P counterable, it isn't throw counterable?

    Nope. This is one of the weird ones. Although it's -12f, the throw has too short a reach, but the PPb+P moves Kage forward just enough to hit (and again, only if Kage blocks Lion's move really close up).


    I think this is a great example of how one cannot look too deeply into stats, because of variables that we don't even keep track of, in terms of numbers, like range. Rules of thumbs and frames analysis, while useful, can never replace experience and play testing.

    Chris is doing the right thing by combining both.
     

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