Tested out some counters to Lion based on framestats available at the following URL: <a target="_blank" href=http://lion_iinkai.tripod.co.jp/waza.html>http://lion_iinkai.tripod.co.jp/waza.html</a> (Thanks to LittleWild for the link!) Firstly, here are some framestats for Kage counters: Throw -- 8f Px -- 12f Hop Kick -- 13f Elbow -- 14f Sidekick / Heelkick / f+P+KP+K -- 16f (1) f+P+K,b (-10f) Completely uncounterable even though it's -10f because Lion moves back after f+P+K so the throw won't connect (2) b,f+K+G,d+P (-12f) Lion recovers facing forward. Throw and P counterable. (3) b,f+K+G,df+P (-4f) Lion recovers facing back. Not P counterable if Lion holds G after the move (turns around and guards). Not throw counterable if Lion does TT attack. Corollary #1: Lion should always use (3) in lieu of (2) Corollary #2: Since P executes in 12f, this means that turning around from back exposed to regular guard takes less than 8f. (4) f+PP (-12f) Not throw-counterable, because even though it's -12f, there's a fair amount of pushback. But it's P-counterable if you happen to be close enough when you block. (5) f+K+G (-12f) Similar to (4) (6) f+P+KK (-13f) Completely uncounterable; massive pushback (7) db+K+G (-10f) Lion recovers facing back. Throw counterable. P/hop kick/elbow counterable even if Lion tries to turn around and guard by holding G after the move. But, not heelkick counterable. Corollary #3: Back throws also take 8f to execute Corollary #4: From back exposed, turning around and guarding takes either 4f or 5f ex. Why? Assume turning around and guarding takes x frames. Then: - elbow (14f) <= db+K+G (-10f) + turn around guard (-x f) - heelkick (16f) > db+K+G (-10f) + turn around guard (-x f) Hypothesis: Moving from stance to regular guard for most characters takes around 4-5f as well. (8) db+PP (-17f) Not throw counterable because Lion recovers low, but hop kick/elbow/heelkick counterable. (9) b,df+P (-15f) Not throw counterable because Lion recovers low. Hop kick and elbow counterable when blocked close up, but iffy hit detection because of pushback.