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Lion's move analysis

Discussion in 'Lion' started by Chibitox, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    I waited a bit to have some perspective on his best moves. This is a quick guide to Lion's move that I had prepared for the wiki.
    I’ll go with a Top 20 because unlike other chars I feel he’s the kind of characters with a lot of good moves but few super good moves. I feel that the only ones that could go in this category are [4][1][2][3][6][P] and the guard break which are still risky moves.
    If anyone's feel it's interesting I could probably go into his other moves, explaining their use and why they didn't make it to my best moves list.

    Best Moves:

    Stance Guard break : takes advantage of the new system, yutori killer, guaranteed [4][4][K] combo for good damage, good wall carry for ROs. Also guarantees a 9K into wall combo near a wall.

    [4][1][2][3][6][P] : Almost to good to be true low, side turns, +5, half circular, « only » -16.

    [6][P][P] : not a great move but the fact that the second hit exists opens the door to mindgames even on block, it’s the corner stone of Lion’s close range game. Also a very good combo ender to keep momentum. Will give 40 damage + knockdown after 90% of the blocked low in the game.

    [3][P]+[K] : opens for 80 damage combos for –15 situations if opponent doesn’t TE after it, fast standing whiff punish after an evade or a ducked high/throw

    [3][K] : one of the best midckick in the game, it is one frame slower than most midkicks but is half circular, and has good range so it’s a very good poke at mid/long range

    [P][K][P]: a three hit string that combos on side hit leaving Lion with good advantage to continue to attack.

    [3][3][P] : safe 70ish combo starter on CH (even more on lightweights), gives people a good reason to not abare.

    [1][K] : 16 frames low that knockdown, ultra unsafe on block and evade. Will evade highs and give a combo on CH. Though this move may look like a noob friendly move that shouldn’t be used at higher level I feel it’s exactly the opposite. This move will help you break the opponent fuzzy guard vs good defenders, and help you start your offense. It is also a good anti sabaki//YY tool with the combo it gives on counter. Near walls you can add a [8][P]+[K] so it becomes a 40pts 16f low.

    [8][K] : one of Lion’s best mid, half circular, jumps over lows at the first frame, gives a small combo on CH, safe on block, and a followup possible.

    [4][4][K] : Lion’s whiff punisher for short range moves when at close range. With the improved back dash properties it is definitely a good move even though it’s range may have been towned down.

    FC[6][P]+[G]: A throw that will deal around 65pts of damage to most of the cast, with very good oki.

    Other good moves

    [6][K]+[G]: The step killer. Can be made safe on oki with the right spacing/timing (yes even to [6]_[P] retaliation).

    [K]+[G]: The other step killer, leaves opponent side turned with very good options for Lion.

    [4][P]+[K] : One of the few moves in the game that can go under mid rising attacks, giving a pretty damaging combo on hit. +2 on block, few people respect that. Fully charged version will give Lion the opportunity to continue to press the offensive, moreso if opponent is back to wall.

    TRSF [K][K]: This move used to be crappy in vanilla, (it was not NC on normal hit for a special high,mid string that requires stance… and was unsafe on block. Don’t know what they had smoked that day…)
    Now it actually makes sense. Natural combo that side turns on hit, 2nd hit delayable for mind games. The 2 hits are semicircular. In different direction (aka good luck to step when you are back to ring edge ;p)
    I believe it’s possible to hit confirm the 2nd hit if the first is a CH but it’s not easy, 2nd hit is Safe on block anyway.

    [8][P]+[K]: fast (15f) semi circular mid that knocks down, great range (slightly better than [3][K]). Good whiff punish, safe on block. Hits low to the ground so this is the go to move after a low wall hit. Best tool for punishing whiffed attacks with fast recovery from mid range.

    [2][K]+[G]: One of the few low full circular that knock down on normal hit. Good step/yutori/YY/sabaki killer in big advantage situations. I see this move as something that will actually kill every advanced defense techniques at the price at being super unsafe with low damage. Don’t over use it on tech rollers unless they are really evade happy or your life bar will suffer.

    [6][6][P]: very good damage, good range, safe on block. It’s the best whiff punisher against long recovery moves like rising attacks if you manage to be fast enough. Also a good option after the [4][6][P]+[G] throw.

    [4][6][K]+[G]: a pretty slow move, that is not so bad on oki (good reward, fuzzyable on block). Can beat rising attacks due to jumping animation and 4 actives frames. Can also be a pretty good meaty.

    [P]+[K] & [4][6][K]: Lions normal hit combo starters, slow but good damage and safes. Mostly useful for techrollers if they’re already discouraged of stepping.
    [P]+[K] is also very good against Aoi since it will hit YY with a CH for 70ish combo. [4][6][K] can jump over lows but unlike [8][K] it’s not instant.

    [4][3][P]: A move that I tend to overuse at close range. It will duck highs and can punish whiffed short range moves after a backdash a bit like [4][4][K] but with the advantage of being low and the drawback of being risky. Not very punishable on block though (-15). Combo afterwards gives significantly more damage on the lighter characters so the risk/reward is better against them.

    [4][4][K]+[G]: no longer full cicular, but will still give advantage on hit. Gives a wall stagger that can be converted into very big damage when opponent is back to wall or when // to wall with Lion back to the wall. Since a lot of people will yutori against the wall fearing [4][6][P]+[G] or FC[6][P]+[K], this will solve the problem lol.
     
  2. Sozos

    Sozos Pai Sucksan Content Manager Pai

    PSN:
    vfsozos87
    XBL:
    vfsozos87
    That is really great post and very useful. Thx a lot Chibitox!!
     
  3. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    [6] [P][K][G]-[P] : a mid poke that stagger crouching and crumble on CH
    this move becomes super important (and should be in the top 7 imo) against decent players who are scared and know that the GB is high and (ofcourse) can be crouched
    Leads to some nice damage combos on CH and great mix ups with the stagger
     
  4. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    You forgot to mention that, contrary to vanilla, TRSFT [K][K] is now +12 on CH, meaning the old "[P][K][P] > oh no, you're still sideturned!" is guaranteed.

    Anyway, no mention of [1][P]? What happened? Did it lose its evasive properties?

    Thanks for the detailed break down!
     
  5. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    another notable move IMO
    [3][3][6] [P][+][K]- Lion's double palm. huge combos from CH sideturn, lion best starter for wall combos (44P+K 46K 9P...)great range very safe thanks to big pushback(-6 on block -5 on block from max range)
     
  6. hseiken1

    hseiken1 Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    hseiken
    After 6PP on no tech, you can 2p to pop the opponent back up in the air for more damage. This is not meaning as combo ender, but two players standing. If 2nd hit lands, you can get more damage if player doesn't tech.
     
  7. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Yes and You can do 2P, 46P+K, 6PP if they don't tech iirc.
    If they still don't tech you can add 43P+K iirc
     
  8. hseiken1

    hseiken1 Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    hseiken
    It's good for the tech/don't tech mind games, imo. Make them afraid to do either.
     
  9. Stl_Tim

    Stl_Tim Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    6pp is one of lion's otg/meaty setups.
    No tech: 66k>2p>6pp>optional 8p+k/3p/oki
    Tech: 6646k or 66336p+k near wall stagger or 663k etc.

    His whole move set has crazy delayed active frames off of moves.
     
  10. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Getting back to Lion nowadays. I've been toying a bit in training mode with 66P+KP string.
    The second hit seems to give a stagger if opponent tries to interrupt with low P. And will give a normal CH with +8 if he tries someting else.

    Now the good thing is that the stagger seems really strong, so strong that even if you set the cpu to fastest struggle he won't be able to block some launchers. iirc I was able to connect with 46K, or 9K+G near the wall for a wall combo.

    Also if like me you had problems with the 9K+G input sometimes leading to unwanted evade, I recently found that holding 9K+G a bit longer than normal will take care of the problem and prevent the wallcombo opportunity to be wasted. :)
     
    Chanchai likes this.
  11. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    66P+KdelayP is also a nice option after 41236P if they like to evade
     
    DomAug and Chanchai like this.
  12. leftylizard

    leftylizard Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    blue mouthwash
    Does anyone know the best way to punish - 18 sweeps with Lion?
     
  13. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    6PP or 33P+K~P+G
    l
     
  14. leftylizard

    leftylizard Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    blue mouthwash
    I just started paying Lion so thanks for the help. I don't believe I even know what 33p=k-p+g looks like. Does he shift into a throw after the intial hit?
     
  15. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T! Content Manager Sarah

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    Dont forget 3pp > 66kk. It does 60ish which isnt bad
     
    Chanchai likes this.
  16. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Yeah, Lion's always gotta use fast-standing to get his real early crouch on-block punish on.... even in FS lol.

    That said, at least it gets very nice at -19, as rare as that is :p
     
  17. hseiken1

    hseiken1 Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    hseiken
    -19 = someone's not respecting you...and you should fix that. :)
     
  18. LegendaryHero90

    LegendaryHero90 Well-Known Member

    Why does Lion have an 11 frame Punch?
     
  19. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    Why not?
     
  20. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    In order to have guaranteed damage after TRSF [K][K]/[3][K]/[4][1][2][3][6][P] side CH ;)
     
    Chanchai likes this.

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