Lion's Version C Command List

Discussion in 'General' started by Deniz, Apr 3, 2002.

  1. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    As requested by Myke, I am posting some minor concerns I had while proofreading the new Lion Command list. One was already rectified yesterday when somebody else pointed out the proper u+KK hit level. Here's a tiny bit more (nothing major):

    1. The damage for his hop kick is given as 25; it should be 22.
    2. The damage for his Trip Throw is shown as 50; it should be 40.
    3. The execution frames of "2" and "0" for the two Mantis Strike entries are wrong. They belong a column to the right, I think. The actual numbers (if VP is correct) should be 31 and 49.
    4. The Notes column for the Vacuum Punch says "Immediately after the b,b+K." It also works with the b,b+P and the b,b+K+G. Also, it doesn't have to be done immediately after; it can be buffered into the move. Suggested revised note: "Immediately after or buffered during the b,b+K, the b,b+P, or the b,b+K+G."
    5. The throw escapes from the "Mantis Catch, Flying Takedown" and the "Mantis Catch, Bulldog" are not standard, so it would be a good idea to note the throw escape commands in the Notes column. Also, the throws are listed as "HT"; aren't they actually "HST"? Further, the notation for the second part of each of these throws makes it look like the "u" or "d" input is simultaneous with the P+G button press; they are written the same as a command throw would be. The "u" or "d" must precede the P+G. Commas should be put between the up/down directional arrow and P+G.
    6. The "Mantis Catch" is called an "HCT" throw, and the two "Mantis Catch, Dodge" throws are called "HTC" throws. Are these just simple typos, or is there an intentional notational difference between "HCT" and "HTC"?
    7. While I was trying to verify reverse levels for Lion's moves, there were a few that have reverse levels listed on the VFDC list that I couldn't get an enemy Akira/Aoi to reverse. Then when I checked them against the Virtua Project list, I found no reverse levels listed for them there. This could be a coincidence, but I thought I'd better mention them, so that they can be properly checked out, or verified here by someone who has already done so. Here are the moves and their VFDC noted reverse levels: Dodging Swipe [LP]; b,f+K+Gd+P [MP]; b,f+K+Gdb+P [MP]; b,f+K+Gd+K [LK]; Vacuum Punch [HP].
    8. While reading through the VP list to do the above comparison, I also noticed some statistical discrepancies with the VFDC list that I couldn't check. Since I don't know which one is right, I'll list both here, so that typos can be corrected, if the site maintainers choose to: "Grd" for Evading Swipe (into the screen): VFDC +2, VP -2; "Grd" for Wall Falling Neckbreaker: VFDC -8, VP -6; "Hit" for TT Double Punch: VFDC +3, VP -3; "MC" for Off the Wall Back Kick: VFDC +8, VP +5.
     
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Changes to Lion's command list:

    1. Hopkick damage corrected to 22. Also changed (asc) to (mid).

    2. Trip Throw damage corrected to 40.

    3. Mantis Strike frames fixed (columns were offset, doh!)

    4. Vacuum Punch notes now read "Entered during any Turn Away Attack"

    5. Mantis Catch throw followups changed to HST. The usual High Side Throw escape rules apply. The notation has been changed to: (Mantis Catch, Dodge) P+G, and the two followups, Leg Drop Takedown and Bulldog, have had their notes updated indicating the direction you need to dodge in.

    6. For clarification: HCT = High Catch Throw; HTC = High Throw Combo (i.e. for throw followups). Looks like a typo, but they're not /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Again, this will be outlined in the legend which is coming Real Soon Now!

    7. In general, I need someone to extensively test the reversal levels for the attacks (all characters) and provide me with corrections. The best way to do this is to play as Akira or Aoi in training mode, set the CPU as Lion (or whoever) and get them to repeat a move against you while you try to reverse it.

    - Dodging Swipe [LP] : is correct.
    - b,f+K+Gd+P [MP]; b,f+K+Gdb+P [MP] : are incorrect. These two-handed attacks aren't reversable and have been corrected.
    - b,f+K+Gd+K [LK] : is correct.
    - Vacuum Punch [HP] : is correct.

    8.
    - Evading Swipe Grd value corrected to -2
    - Wall Falling Neck Break Grd value is correct at -8. (VP should correct their value)
    - TT Double Punch Hit value corrected to -3.
    - Off the Wall Back Kick MC value is correct at +8. (VP should correct their value)


    p.s. many thanks to SummErs for testing.
     
  3. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    4. Vacuum Punch notes now read "Entered during any Turn Away Attack".

    I understand your need for succinctness, but do you think this might be too vulnerable to a misunderstanding? It doesn't work with the Double-Handed Peck, Half-Moon Kick, Turning Sweep, etc, which are technically turn away attacks, even if they are not listed in that section of the move list.

    In general, I need someone to extensively test the reversal levels for the attacks (all characters) and provide me with corrections. The best way to do this is to play as Akira or Aoi in training mode, set the CPU as Lion (or whoever) and get them to repeat a move against you while you try to reverse it.

    I would be glad to do this (it's fun!) if I understood how. If I play as Aoi/Akira in training mode, how do I make CPU Lion (or any other character) do a specific move? When I was in the training mode, I tried to do just this, but I couldn't figure out how to do it. I found how to get the CPU to concentrate on certain attack levels, or on throws, but saw no way of doing what you suggest. If someone can tell me the method, after getting over feeling stupid, I will gladly do my best to test.
     
  4. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    In the interim, three more discrepancies in reverse levels that I couldn't get tested for Lion: VFDC shows reverse levels for his Hopkick [MK], Landing Sweep [SW], and Backward Hopkick [MK], all of which VP show as not being subject to a reverse. As with the others, I can't yet get CPU Akira/Aoi to reverse them. The Backward Hopkick seems especially problematic, since it is not clear to me how one reverses a retreating hopkick.

    In case anyone else checks, I noticed three other discrepancies with the VP Lion reverse levels, but I was able to verify them, and VFDC is correct, VP incorrect, so I didn't mention them. They are his b,b+P, his b,b+K, and his b,b+K+G. And while I am at it, VP shows the hit level (not reverse level) for his b,f+P+KPP as being l*, which disagrees with VFDC's "M" level. Again, I verified that VFDC's is the correct information.
     
  5. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Jesus, it's imashroom all over again.

    No offense Deniz, but it takes a certain kind of person to care so much about the detail/accuracy of such information.

    I for one think Myke's got better things to do and what's up there, errors or whatnot, is good enough.

    -Jason
     
  6. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Er, I have to disagree with you on this. Things like that may seem minor, but... let me give you an example.

    The VF4 White Book lists Kage's dodge attack as -14f recovery (they basically copied it from the Blue Book, which was also wrong). Daily VF4 states that this is an error, and it's actually -13f. The difference is *huge* -- Vanessa's MT lightning elbow can punish -14f but not -13f.

    As for hit levels, l* vs m is a pretty big difference. You can block the first either standing or crouching, you get staggered when crouch blocking the second. Hell, Aoi's double stop and knee were toned down in ver.C precisely because they changed the moves from m to m* (so you can low-block the double stop and throw her now).

    So I really don't see anything wrong with Deniz pointing out errors on a website, particularly when it comes to frames, reversal levels, sabaki levels, or whatnot, and in fact, I think it's a good thing. And ultimately, Myke's the one updating the site anyway, so it's up to him to decide whether to update the site accordingly or not.
     
  7. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Mr. Cha, Myke asked me to do this. It's he who thinks the lists should be made better; and he asked for input; same for Yupa with VP. I already said the lists were great. So what's the problem? Did you do a Search first to see the history? And what's an imashroom? Is it a variant of Akira's shrm? At least write clearly what you mean so that idiots like me who lack your refinement can appreciate your finally tuned attacks.

    I don't know what you mean by it takes a certain kind of person to care about this sort of thing. You know nothing about me or what kind of person I am, so don't make implied baseless generalizations and stereotypes. Doesn't it take a certain kind of person to worry about what other people care about just because it's different from what they care about? It's a message board. Isn't it meant for messages? You can ignore those that you fnd silly. It's not like I am writing a post on some important issue to begin with. Jesus, it's only a damn video game. I mean I could stupidly say it takes a certain kind of person to spend so much time absorbed with a video game in the first place, regardless of in what way. And what about people who go to the trouble of making a rude unnecessary post to disparage others?

    I will be glad to not make a single further post in this forum or help in any way with the move lists.

    Some people...
     
  8. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    I would be glad to do this (it's fun!) if I understood how. If I play as Aoi/Akira in training mode, how do I make CPU Lion (or any other character) do a specific move? When I was in the training mode, I tried to do just this, but I couldn't figure out how to do it. I found how to get the CPU to concentrate on certain attack levels, or on throws, but saw no way of doing what you suggest. If someone can tell me the method, after getting over feeling stupid, I will gladly do my best to test.

    Go to training mode playing as Akira/Aoi against whatever character you want to test, open the menu, go to record, record the moves that you want to test their reversal level with and play as Akira/Aoi against the recorded sequence. A successful reversal will end the playback, so you'll need to restart it again.
     
  9. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    ""A successful reversal will end the playback, so you'll need to restart it again"""

    Actually, there is way to make the cpu repeat the moves over n over n over again....argh..too bad mine's in Japanese..dunno what the hell sega decided to call it in English.
     
  10. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Deniz, chill man, like I said, no offense.

    Imashroom is someone who used to post here. He started off by posting corrections to errors he noticed in the moves list, and while it started off all good, quickly turned into a little fiasco annoying the hell out of a number of people, especially me.

    Chris - I'm not saying that the details aren't important. I think I know better than anyone else the importance of a one frame difference or hit level (Lion’s 13 frame low punch losing to Kage’s 12 frame low punch after blocking Kage’s u/f+k+g or that Yusuke ducked my charged b+p+k because I didn't charge it for the full time, leaving it as a high hit rather than the charged mid).

    What I am saying is that there are certain anal types who would spend time nitpicking over such details in moves lists just for accuracy’s sake rather than actually using the information playing the game. People like that are just a pain in the ass. This thread started off because someone, playing the game, didn’t know that you could duck Lion’s second hop kick because the moves list had noted it as a mid hit. When people notice stuff like that from playing the game, such as a frame stat being incorrect because they keep on getting interrupted when they shouldn’t, obviously it should be corrected.

    But a systematic going over a list just to be “correct†when people may not necessarily care - just a waste of time and energy that can end up just pissing people off. I don’t want a repeat of what happened before. Chris, just be glad you weren’t here for that.

    Deniz, if I jumped the gun and immediately stereotyped you into a negative archtype because of my memory of the less than pleasant dealings with imashroom, I apologize. I wasn't paying attention and didn't realize that Myke asked you for the corrections.

    -Jason
     
  11. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Deniz, please keep posting your corrections. This forum was made for this type of error correcting, and people can ignore the posts if they don't care for movelist errata. Imashroom was indeed a poster hear back in VF3 days that caused a lot of frustration for kbcat and llanfair at virtuaproject. I wasn't involved back then but I've heard the stories from them and read the old threads here... I too would like to make sure the lists are as correct as we can possibly make them. Just be patient with updates at virtuaproject for right now... I'm having difficulty setting aside the chunk of time I'll need to do the detailed work of fixing the lists. It's good IMO to have errata listed in the forums as a form of history of the changes that were made.

    I was originally comparing VP vs. VFDC movelists to search for typos and inconsistencies, but your testing of moves in free training and finding the correct damage values and hit levels is a big help, as these were obviouly typos in the Japanese guides to begin with.

    Deniz, as long as you have the motivation to check the lists, keep on posting your results. There are people that will find the info you dig up useful.
     
  12. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    The Backward Hopkick seems especially problematic, since it is not clear to me how one reverses a retreating hopkick.

    If Lion has his back to the wall then reversing a retreating hopkick would be possible, assuming of course, it is reversable.

    In regard to the Vacuum Punch, I'm just going to leave the note as is for now in the hope that people will realise that it can only be done with the attacks listed in the Turn Away attacks section, even though there are other attacks which recover Back Turned.

    Deniz, keep the corrections coming. If possible, once you work out how to reliably test reversal levels, put the corrections in the one post and add it to this thread.

    Cheers.
     
  13. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Okay, I finally figured out how to control a CPU character in free training mode to repeat a move over and over. All dumb me had to do was read the manual.

    Myke, I am not sure I understood your request re reversals. Did you want me to wait until I've tested every reverse level for all characters and make one single post covering them all? Or is it okay to post results in appropriate threads related to a specific character's command list (which will allow for specific errata threads for each character, and quicker corrections)?

    For now: Concerning Lion's questionable hop attacks that VFDC and VP disagree on: I verified that the reverse level for his Hopkick is MK; VFDC is correct. But both VFDC and VP are incorrect on his Landing Sweep; it can be reversed, but it's reverse level is LK, not SW. As for the Backward Hopkick: I backed the CPU Lion (activated to continually repeat this move) into a corner, and try as I might, after many attempts, I could get neither Akira nor Aoi to reverse it. Conclusion: Either VP is right in asserting it can't be reversed, or I am simply not skilled enough to do so. I suspect (hope) it's that it can't be reversed. Anyone else wishing to test it should be careful not to confuse it with the ub version of his Hopkick -- they look very similar, but do different damage.

    Myke: The notes in the VP Lion command list point out moves that trip the opponent; are you interested in adding them to the VFDC list, along with the slams, foot crumbles, flops, etc.?
     
  14. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Myke, I am not sure I understood your request re reversals. Did you want me to wait until I've tested every reverse level for all characters and make one single post covering them all? Or is it okay to post results in appropriate threads related to a specific character's command list (which will allow for specific errata threads for each character, and quicker corrections)?

    Deniz, definitely the latter -- that is, put all the reversal corrections for a particular character in that character's thread. It's just easier for me to update them all in one go rather than do it bit by bit each day.

    Myke: The notes in the VP Lion command list point out moves that trip the opponent; are you interested in adding them to the VFDC list, along with the slams, foot crumbles, flops, etc.?

    I don't believe there is anything special about the "trip". It's akin to a head snapping back from a high punch, or doubling over from a toekick -- it's just a new (to VF4) way of animating the hit from a low sweep that doesn't knock down.

    It's not as important as other hit effects like Stumble, Slam, Crumble, Flop, etc, IMO. The only information one gets from the "trip" is that the sweep doesn't knock down on normal hit, but you should ascertain that anyway from the Hit frame difference not being blank. But all other hit effects I am interested in, so if I've missed any, let me know.

    I finally got my VF4 today, so I'll get cracking on some testing and updates too. Thanks again for all the help.
     
  15. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    As a result of continued testing:

    The reverse level for Lion's Turning Sweep (db+K+G) should be LK, not SW.

    The list indicates his two Evading Swipes (d|u, P+K+G) can't be reversed. They can be reversed, and the reverse level is HP.

    This may seem too obvious, but shouldn't there be a note for his F+P to say "Continue with Px sequence," and with his F+K to say "Continue with Kx sequence"? I haven't checked out VF4 Jacky yet, but in VF3, his F+P sequences don't match his P sequences, so this isn't a totally foolish observation. And rather than repeat the same trivial remark in another thread: similar notes could be placed with Sarah's B+P; F+P; and F+K commands.
     
  16. Vicious666

    Vicious666 Well-Known Member

    "5. Mantis Catch throw followups changed to HST. The usual High Side Throw escape rules apply. The notation has been changed to: (Mantis Catch, Dodge) P+G, and the two followups, Leg Drop Takedown and Bulldog, have had their notes updated indicating the direction you need to dodge in."

    Myke, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the change to the Mantis Catch, Dodge followups seems a bit misleading now. I tend to do this a lot as an opener (I think you can actually buffer the first couple commands in before "Go!," although I've read that's not possible...). It seems that if you dodge UP, you do the Bulldog, but if you dodge DOWN, you do the Flying Takedown. The way the command list reads now, it seems like you could do either no matter which way you dodge, when, really, the command for each is the same. The dodge direction controls which followup throw you do. Is this right?
     
  17. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    This is how these two throws appear in the command list as of now:

    <ul type="square">[*]Mantis Catch, Bulldog : Dodge to back side
    [*]Mantis Catch, Leg Drop Takedown : Dodge to front side[/list]

    Doding to the back side of your opponent is the same as dodging to their leading foot. And dodging to the front side is the same as dodging to their rear foot.

    If you're on 1P side and the opponent is in their natural stance, i.e. right foot forward, then you would need to dodge up for the Bulldog. However, if your opponent has switched their stance (left foot forward), then you'd need to dodge down for the Bulldog.

    So it's not a simple matter of dodging up each time. The Mantis Catch followups depend on which side of the opponent you dodge to.
     
  18. Vicious666

    Vicious666 Well-Known Member

    Oh, of course! That was dumb of me. I wasn't thinking about it in terms of which side you're on, cause I'm so used to doing it from the same direction. Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  19. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Myke: The hit level for the u+KK Double Hopping Kick was supposedly corrected from M to H, but when I go into the list, it still erroneously shows it as a midlevel hit. Its reversal level also needs to be corrected from MK to HK.

    The height for inputting his Backward Hopkick is given as "mid." This is definitely wrong; it is "ascending." The move comes out by simply tapping ub+K, with no further/delayed input. At "mid," you get the similar looking ub version of his Hopkick.

    BTW, I should have mentioned in my last post that I've completed a total check of the VFDC Version C Command List of reversal levels for all of Lion's moves. All errors/problems with them on the VFDC list have been noted in this thread. I still need to verify all the hit levels and damage stats.
     
  20. cooks94

    cooks94 Well-Known Member

    I Just started to use Liom and for the Mantis catch what happens to me is if you dodge by pressing up or down only once he does the bulldog and for the leg drop you press up or down twice. Could be wrong though.
     

Share This Page