Looking @ Akira's Frame Data

Thanks to the Release of the Black Book and Myle & Akai's cool new command lists, we're now able to answer some of the questions we've been asking since VF5 was announced, and see some interesting changes made to Akira. For the most part, it seems like good news, with one or two sad notes for Akira players; and some surprises.

everyone please feel free to add/correct on anything.

The SPOD

First off, now that we have the Data in hand, we can confirm that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif has been made Linear (no longer need to Dodge to Akira's Front Side). This is sad news, as the Half-Circular SPOD has been part of Akira's game since VF3, and this means his Ukemizeme game has been weakened. While /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif are good moves, I'd trade them both in (as his attacks that now require Dodge to his Front) for the old /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. But... Spilt Milk, the SPOD is still a great move for punishing whiffed Throws/Evades; although it can't be used in Reverse Nitaku at more than -2 anymore, or in a "dodge trap" like we have been using it.

The good news: it's only -13 on guard! This means that with a few exceptions, like Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, the worst Attack that you'll be eating on Guard is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. For some reason, the Back Turned version is still -15, which I think is odd, since it's more risky and Akira only has one way to get into the BT position.

The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, Akira's Most Important Attack

For the most part, Akira's Minor Counter situation has remained the same from FT, with the biggest change being that the SDE (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif) is once again safe at -8. Due to the new clash system though, Akira won't be able to Attack against a Throw with any High or Mid (aside from his Attacks that fall into the exceptions, like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif), or even /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif without getting clashed. This basically leaves Akira's lows: low /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, the latter being a little slow to use @ -8 I think? So, even though Akira's not Throw Counterable frame-wise, unless you want to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or a Low, you're gonna have to TE to avoid being thrown, because -8 doesn't give you enough time to Crouch, Crouch Dash, or Fuzzy Guard. And since your fastest Attack: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif won't come out for 19 frames, leaving you open to counter hits from most of the best launchers in the game, this leaves you with pretty limited options:

1. If you can Yomi the oppt will Throw FOR SURE, you can use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to gain the advantage, with +4 (I'm assuming that the 20 frames it'll take to come out won't be quick enough to get you a counter hit against the Throw). +4 gives Akira good options.

2. if you're unsure, your only real choice is to Dodge-Throw Escape(-Guard). Getting predictable with the low /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will just mean that you're going to be eating Counter Hit knees etc, and you CAN'T really Attack otherwise. Of course, DTEG leaves you open to a whole mess of other things, and there are options like using his Reversals, Sabaki's etc in combination with TE's, or using TE-Guard. I'd also like to fool around with the Offensive Move from this position, and the Dodge Attack, but I have a feeling they won't provide great results.

In a Nutshell, if you want to play Akira in VF5, you're going to have to understand the fundamentals of good Yomi, and be able to use Defensive Techniques to their fullest to protect yourself after the Yakuho is Guarded. Even if his knee were considered Jumping, it'd only be useful against Throws. VF5 Akira HAS to use complex Defensive Commands. If you had perfect Yomi, you'd only be able to low /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Though, with DTEG, you don't want to be predictable, as this will just open you up to all the things which can punish that, so mix it up. You'll also have to understand the things that can beat these Defensive Techs, and how to beat those (IE using Delay against Dodge Throw Escape forces you to sacrifice your Advantage).

Advantage on Guard

Like in VF4, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif still gives +1 on Guard, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif now gives +2. Myke has already mentioned how the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif gives +3, and in a similar fashion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (Full Charge) gives +4.

His new /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif also gives +4, but this Attack is High, like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, and can be seen coming with plenty of time to duck the 2nd hit. Still, nice to know it gives Advantage.

Minor Counter

It's interesting to note that due to the slower Throws at 12 frames, and fastest /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifs at 10 frames, there's no longer a "Throw Only" Minor Counter class. If you can be Minor Countered, it means you're going to be eating /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif etc. Attacks that leave Akira in a state where Attack or Throw is guaranteed:

The Double Palm /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: -15
Kuzushi Double Palm (DblPm during Break Guard or certain Throws): -12 nice!
Yoho /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: -15
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: -11
Single Jumping Kick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -15
Kuzushi SJK: -10
Double Jumping Kick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -25
Standing Low Kick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -14
Crouching Low Kick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -15
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -14 finish it w//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or step w//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif! there's no timing anymore, don't do this!
Tetsuzanko /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -24
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: -14
Knee: -13
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif: -12
Dodge Attack (during Defensive Move)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -15
OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -13
Baskstep Low Kick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -17
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif: -13
DLC 2: -13
DLC: -17
AS3 1: -16
AS3 2: -17
AS3: -15
Turning Toward Standing Low Kick: -12
TT Crouching Low Kick: -17
TT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -26
TT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif: -15
various rising attacks

Throws:
only the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif: -25
and the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: -12
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif have both become safe!


I'm going to write more later (going to work), as there are several more interesting points/changes.

Bryan

 

It looks like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is only -2 now just like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, so at least his main directions are alot safer than before. I'm going to miss the SPoD tracking properties, but at least that loss is compensated for with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Looking at this new move in addition to the already awesome /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, he can now track in both directions with safe moves. I still think he's pretty strong because of this.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Due to the new clash system though, Akira won't be able to Attack against a Throw with any High or Mid (aside from his Attacks that fall into the exceptions)</div></div>

Hmm, maybe it's just me that missed something, but looking back at the explanation of the clash system:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are 3 classes of attack which will never clash with a throw.
1) Ducking state attacks, such as low punch or low kicks.
2) Attacks that leave you back turned such as Lion's .
3) Jumping state attacks, such as Lau's .
When these three classes are used as reverse nitaku, even in large disadvantaged situations, no clash will occur and they will beat out a throw.</div></div>

Wouldn't attacks like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif fall under category 1, since they tech crouch? (at least I think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif tech crouches, again, correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

I believe that double limbed and shoulder based attacks also do not clash, although I'm not positive on this...

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't attacks like +, + and fall under category 1, since they tech crouch? (at least I think + tech crouches, again, correct me if I'm wrong.) </div></div>

The way I understand the Crouching thing, from what I can read in the Black Book, it's attacks that bring the character to crouching status, the example given being /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. I think maybe the best way to think about it is if you're crouching while the attack is in it's hit frames (like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. From what I can make out in the book, there's also no mention of Double Limbed or Shoulder/Body attacks. In the end, we'll probably have to test this stuff.

 

I'm a little tired from work, but I'm gonna get in one thing I'm excited about:

The Kuzushi Moko, The Double Palm, and You

For anyone who doesn't know, Akira's "Kuzushi" versions of some of his normal Attacks are special case versions of said attacks, which are used after his Break Guards (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif), the Stumbling Throw /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, or the Surprise Exchange /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Kuzushi Attacks usually differ in a few key ways from the normal versions, mainly giving better Advantage, less Disadvantage on Guard, and some special hit properties.

For VF5, looking at the command list, we can see that the Single Palm, Double Palm, and Single Jumping Kick all have Kuzushi versions. The differences are:

Kuzushi Single Palm (Moko Kohazan): Can be executed with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, no need to come to a Crouch. Damage is set to 20, -1 on Guard, +13 on Hit, Stomach KD on Counter Hit! Crouching Guard gives +6, and you can't add the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif for the Elbow.

Kuzushi Double Palm: Can be executed with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, no need to come to a Crouch. Damage set to 30. -12 on Guard (vs the normal -15).

Kuzushi Single Jumping Kick: Damage set to 20, -10 on guard, meaning only Pai, Sarah and Eileen can punish on Guard w/ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. This /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (if history holds true) will float much higher than a normal SJK, even on Normal Hit, allowing for a Combo. This is good after the Break Guards.

The interesting stuff primarily revolves around the Kuzushi Single Palm. This move really isn't used so much in FT and VF5, primarily since the Stumbling Throw -> Single Palm can be struggled out of by all characters, BUT Am2 always tweaks this move's properties in EVERY version, so my opinion is that they want us to use this move. This time, they've given us a Stomach KD on Counter Hit, which could prove VERY useful, or may never be seen, time will tell (note: the VFDC version of the command list has this move @ +10 on Counter Hit, but the Black Book says Stomach KD, so if VFDC's info is more current, please let me know). They've also retained the big Frame Advantage on Normal Hit, upping it by one frame to +13, which also happens to be the execution for the Double Palm. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

For anyone who's played VF4 Akira, you know what this means: if you can hit with the Kusushi Single Palm, a buffered Double Palm (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif) is guaranteed. Here are some examples:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif 60 Damage
a classic from VF4. Unless something has changed from Version 1 while I was in Japan, this still works. While you CAN struggle this combo to Guard the SglPm, I think many players won't struggle hard enough, especially if you input the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ASAP, as if it's one command with the Throw. In addition, if you mix this up with heavy use of only the DblPm, which can't be struggled, oppt's may stop trying to struggle altogether. This Throw has a long buffer window, so the speed of the follow-up Attack's input DOES make a difference.

Break Guard -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif 50 Damage
While I think it MIGHT be possible to struggle this, in VF4 the best struggler I know couldn't do it, while he could struggle following w/ the Yoho. More good news on this front is that the properties for the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif Break Guard have changed, which is nice, since it's Special Mid. It leaves Akira at -8 still, but that guarantees nothing now, so you can throw this BG out w/out having to worry about Whiffing, as long as they're in range.

While these things were possible in VF4, post Evo they were seldom seen. But, VF5 gives us new reason to try to land these moves: the Double Palm now causes the Wall KD. So, say the oppt's back is facing the wall, but he's not close enough that the DblPm will push him to the wall.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif oppt hits Wall -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

that's big damage, and it's guaranteed. Of course, you could also substitute the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif in after the Single Palm against people hoping you'll mess up your DblPm buffering.

Another nice point is that the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif also gives +13, so you can apply the same tactics after hitting with that move. Remember as well that the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif also makes an absolute Nitaku between the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif canned follow-up and a Break Guard, and now both of these options are safe! Given the fact that you'll also be able to DblPm people in the Back, into a Wall from the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif Reverse Body Check follower, you'll be able to really wreak havoc near the wall with the Pull In Throw.

Have fun thinking of ways to abuse these options, and a prize to the first person who manages to get a Stomach KD from the Kuzushi Moko!

 

A HA! It will be me... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif->/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif(KD)->/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif->(wall)->/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif!/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

 

Thx for the useful discussions here. I noticed that DE is -5 on block, and DFS is -4. So, I guess DE then a LP isn't as safe as it was in VF4.

I also noticed that Shrm is -9 on block. Does it mean it is uncounterable due to the slower throw? I don't have a soild grasp on the new system in VF5, yet. I just speculated that since SDE is said to be uncounterable for being -8, Shrm would be as well.



Not really Akira specific, but after reading posts on the clash system, I still think that using Knee or SPOD in a large disadvantaged situation has its purpose. You won't beat a throw attempt like you did in VF4 due to the clash system, but you would still beat out a delayed attack attempt on counter if you have done enough pre-conditioning to have your opponent go for it.


I think that the clash system is an interesting addition and development onto the system in VF4. I guess Sega tried to reward players with solid understanding of the system and capability of utilizing several different defensive techniques in the game.

 

-9 is uncounterable on block, but -9 makes your RN options very limited as Akira.

I agree with what you said as well Maddy.

 

Did I read correctly aways back in some other thread somewhere that 466p+k to the back causes a back crumble?

edit: just tracked it down in of all places, the vf5 akira thread. shocking. anyone else develop an itch alluffasudden?

 

Thanks for pointing it out Bryan, these are nice ideas and i cant wait to test them out later.........

 

Yo, just want to add a little bit of the discussion we just had in the swe channel. While byakko now techniqually is 13 frames it doesn't matter since you don't get one frame penalty for modding the move from standing anymore. Also, note that PK now gets akira +4 (pk in general) and is only -2 on guard. I would take PK a whole lot when it was guaranteed with Akira and theathen with SDE and so on after.

Cool post btw Akiralove

 

My speculation is that due to a slower throw, you'd need at least +4 to have a forced nitaku in 5. (correct me if I am wrong as I've been just recently trying to get a grip on this new system in 5). I assume that LBF in 4 was +3 on hit and it's +4 on hit in 5 for the reason, and DE has become -5 because if it remained at -3, there wouldn't have been a forced guessing game even after it gets blocked.


Btw, Akira's PK has been -2 on block since 4. It's still kind of hard to throw it out unless the P is guaranteed due to the fact that both attacks hit high.

Good discussions. Let's continue.

 

Yes it does cause a back crumble. If you're fast and sneaky enough, you can get it after a 4,3p+g, which then leads to delayed dbljk for really good damage.

I love him so, but I have to admit, Aki is a pig. Hahahah.

Strange "mwa~h?" moment i had playing against an Aki player recently was that I couldnt sabaki his 66p+k with my Goh's dfp+k. Isnt that a mid punch-elbow attack? That thing can't be a body check or double hand attack can it? And I'm pretty sure it's not high...

 

I was under the impression that there was a one frame penalty (like in VF4) for dashing motions, i.e 44/66, but not anymore for CD (i.e 11/33). Don't even remember where I read it, thought it was common opinion by now. I guess if the mag said that it's still the same for CD also then clearly I'm wrong. If I find where I got this madness from I'll get back.

 

The way I understand the Crouching thing, from what I can read in the Black Book, it's attacks that bring the character to crouching status, the example given being /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. I think maybe the best way to think about it is if you're crouching while the attack is in it's hit frames (like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. From what I can make out in the book, there's also no mention of Double Limbed or Shoulder/Body attacks. In the end, we'll probably have to test this stuff. </div></div>

This is right. Only actually crouching or jumping attacks will not clash. Tech crouch doesn't count as a real crouch so tech crouch moves will cause clash.

Also, shoulder / body attacks definitely do cause clash (sadly), but I'm not sure about double limbed (as Goh has none). I'm guessing they probably do cause clash too though.

 

Kiwe,

I think you might be confusing the technique of WASTING one frame w/ a dash/CD that's needed for some combos to work, and the way buffering's physics operate.

In VF4, Akira got exactly +12 in the situations where DblPm was guaranteed, and now he gets exactly +13. IMO it's one of the reasons you don't see things like PIT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> DblPm used too much, it's tough to master the timing for buffering the complete command BEFORE the previous attack's frames end, so people don't want to miss and end up @ -15.

An example of wasting a frame to make the timing correct is Akira's VF4 combo:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> waste a frame -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

In the case of using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif after a hit w/ the Kuzushi Single Palm, unless the oppt's back is to the wall, you're out of range after the Single Palm hits. That's why you never saw /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif... in VF4.

Maddy:

according to Srider in the Clash thread, +6 is now the advantage needed to force Nitaku, which I'm guessing means CD/Crouch needs 6 frames. So, the DE is relatively safe on guard, compared to the SDE, since you can Fuzzy after it's guarded. Another nice point is that the DE on Counter gives +8, which puts you in the forced Nitaku zone. But, I've been mentally debating:

If you've hit w/ the DE on Counter, you could have hit w/ the SDE on counter (given perhaps one more frame for the extra /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif) and gotten big damage, not just +8. It's purely a paper arguement at this point, but how do you feel about the reward of being able to force Nitaku, vs. the reward of about 1/3rd of the Life Bar, relative to the risks?

Bryan

 

All the documentations thus far clearly describe that at -6, you cannot CROUCH to avoid a throw, thus constituting a true nitaku situation.

I emphasized crouch because I don't know if the speed where you crouch/cd are the same or different. There might not be a distinction between them in VF5.