looking for the best moves off stagger

Hey

Looking for the best moves for maximum damage when Vanessa has someone staggered

Like say after hitting 6 P+K+G

What's best when you hit and you transfer from OS to DS and vice versa. Thanks in advance. Any other stagger and stagger options are welcomed help as well.

 

Short version: a basic followup when landing a shoulder ram is to do a second shoulder ram then PPK ( > >). Dead easy, works from both stances and, if they unstagger quickly and block your second shoulder ram, it's only -2 on block. Also, since you're doing a second shoulder ram you're reverting back to your original stance so you don't have to worry about transferring from OS to DS and vice versa

Long version: These are the stagger followups I am aware of, from faster to slower, from each stance:

DS stagger followups

WS (14+f) floats for a combo. Universal followup seems to be >
(16f) 40 damage on everyone, including Taka; most reliable option for side staggers.
(16f) floats for a combo; follow up with vs light- and middle-weights; vs heavier characters float with instead (see below)
(16f) floats for a combo; follow up with vs heavy middleweights and heavyweights ONLY (will only connect against lighter characters after a crouch stagger, a rare situation).
(16+f) wall splats after a wall stagger
(17f) head crumples for a full combo but has poor reach so it frequently whiffs; Should connect vs. closed stance jeffry, wolf, taka; connects against more characters after a wall stagger
(19f) floats, switches stances
(21f) wall splats after wall stagger (slower but better range than ); +3f if blocked

OS stagger followups:

(14f) slams for a combo
(16f) floats for a combo. Easy followups: vs light- and middle-weights ; vs heavies or (less dmg, switch to to DS ); continue reading this thread for more damaging (but also more complicated) combos.
(16f) combos for less damage; should guarantee vs taka (?); the string occasionally whiffs though, so not really recommended vs anyone except Taka
(16f) low wall slumps after a wall stagger; afterwards or always combo; sometimes (not sure it's worth it); should test (most of the time i think)
(16f) flops for a combo that's less damaging than the previously mentioned options; however after a wall stagger d+k,p,b+p > f+pkg will apparently connect; decent Taka damage (52) as well.
(16+f) floats for a combo. Easy mode ender works up to Akira; continue reading this thread for more damaging (but also more complicated) combos.
(17f) floats for a full combo, might whiff depending on distance though
(18+f) high wall splats after wall stagger for a full combo
(19f) floats, switches stances
(19f) hit throw, useful vs Taka
(23f) floats for a full combo; +2f if blocked

"Wall Stagger" can frequently be replaced with any stagger occurring near a wall.

Not worth considering:

DS (18f) should float for a small combo - but why bother when you can ?
DS (24f) slams for a combo, seems like max dmg vs Taka except dash > is probably better; possibly or even !
OS (19f) guarantees - but there are faster and more damaging alternatives

 

Really appreciate it. Gonna see what I can with it ASAP.

 

Yesterday i landed a couple of DS on backdashing opponents and noticed that whiffed.

So i went to the dojo and, indeed, shoulder ram whiffs if Vanessa in not close to the opponent when they backdash.

On the other hand the following combo seems to be much more reliable:

DS backdash stagger > >

is 5f slower than but the backdash stagger is harder to shake off so it still connected vs the AI set to "normal" unstagger speed (not fastest). Unfortunately can still whiff at max range though

DS backdash stagger > dash > () float > your combo of choice, eg.

...is much more reliable. Gotta be fast with the dash though! EDIT: poor choice - see @Chibitox 's recommendation below for a much better folllowup!

From OS things are easier, OS will always connect, netting you the standard combo, no matter the distance. Getting OS to stagger a bakdashing opponent is much harder though - Vanessa must be VERY close to the opponent for it to connect

 

Yesterday I tried what I could do in this situation in dojo, here is what I found:

dash, P+KP, 6PKK (around 94 iirc)
dash 3P+K --> combo


For some reason the later seems to work quite well despite 3P+K having a short range.
But I'll definitely advice using the first one.

I need to test this in real match situation, see if it works.

For OS I didn't try for the reason you mentionned (OS 3K range is short). But it may be possible to have the buttstagger with 4K which have a much better range ?

 

Unfortunately OS doesn't cause a backdash stagger in this version

But, wow, dash > DS , is much easier to do than dash DS and does far more damage! Thanks for the heads up

Also, you're right again, boomerang hook seems to connect - and if you input it as the inputs are dead easy too!

 

Ah too bad for 4K. But 4K(CH) IS mixup are not that bad either.
Or I Guess we have to go with 66K(CH) combo in these situations.

 

No, will also whiff against a backdash staggered opponent - of course you could do but in that case you might as well do dash > instead, right?

 

9K= unsafe
Also P+K in OS has nice range, it will catch back dash were 6P will fail.
My friend love to use backdash 3P (will beat elbow, stand P, low P and you'll eat a combo...) with Kage, I found P+K (confirm) K was a good way to deal with that.

 

Way ahead of you - i went on and tested everything by setting the dojo CPU to backdash! Posted the results in a new thread

 

Back to the stagger followup discussion - after watching some of Chief Flash's recent streams i got rather jealous of the damage VF5FS Wolf deals out of his staggers. It gave me the urge to find out just how much damage Vane can deal out of her staggers.

For the time being i checked DS and OS shoulder rams with the CPU unstagger set to "normal". Please forgive the lack of formatting, it was a long writeup. So long in fact i added a TL;DR section.

DS f+pkg stagger

16f df+k,p

> p > d+p+k > p+k,p +70 vs all except wolf, jeffry, taka.
> p > f+p,p,k +64 vs all except taka.
> f+p,p,k +59 vs all except taka (undroppable).
> p,p,k +56 vs all except taka (undroppable, low wall splat/RO over low fences).

So, basically, that's +70 easymode damage vs everyone except the heavies. Haven't seen it in any vids either. Calling it the erdraug online special, since unstaggering is much harder online. Yup, i'm rather proud of myself for this discovery.

Unfortunately sometimes df+k will whiff on closed stance (depends on the timing) vs superlightweights. It will also whiff if f+pkg connects at a distance (ie. after DS b+p CH). Thankfully there's...

16+f f,f+k,k

> Forward+p >d+p+k > p+k,k +74 vs eileen, el blaze, aoi (doing the modified version of the jab is MANDATORY)
> Forward+p,p,k +60 vs all except wolf, jeffry, taka.
> f+p,p,k +63 vs wolf*
> f+p,k +55 vs jeffry

* also eileen, el blaze, aoi, lion, brad, akira, maybe more, hard to memorize, f+p,p whiffs on open vs random middleweights; stick to the more reliable 60 dmg combo.

This move has a far better range, but it's not very damaging vs anything except the superlightweights. If you want to take the risk of using a slower move, there's also...

19f f+pkg (switches back to DS)

> p > b+p+k > f+p,k,k +76 vs sarah, pai, lion, vane (hold Forward+p for sarah).
> p > b+p+k > f+p,df+k +70 vs lightweights, lau, lei fei and brad (for some reason f+p whiffs on open vs kage).
> p > f+p,k,k +66 vs all except wolf, jeffry, taka.
> p,p,k +53 vs all except taka (hold Forward+p for jeffry).

19f b,df+p+k!p+g hit-throw (+58 dmg to everyone, INCLUDING TAKA, strict timing)

---

Honorable mentions:

14f f+p+k (+43 dmg minimum, whiffs vs lightweights).
17f uf+k (+62 dmg minimum, whiffs vs light and middleweights, elbow punishable if blocked - however it's the only followup that does more dmg vs taka other than the hit-throw).
16f df+p (+49 dmg maximum is just too low).

For reference, staggers from jump/IS k are shorter but on the other hand f+p+k/uf+k+g will probably connect.

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OS f+pkg stagger (even more comments!)

14f WS p floats. See k floats below.

16f f+p,k,k: 40 dmg vs everyone, INCLUDING Taka. Everyone knows this, staple since VF4. Basis for comparison.

16f k floats:

When DS k connects against a staggered opponent it floats them in the air. As mentioned this also happens with DS WS p, which is 2 frames faster (AFAIK floats are identical). This allows vanessa to tag additional damage to light and middleweight opponents. Here are the various possible followups:

> p,p,k: Easymode combo +46 damage. Works from eileen up to and including goh. Hold Forward+p vs Lei Fei (otherwise it will whiff in open stance). In other words, press k, while the kick is being executed press and hold forward, THEN hit p,p,k.

> (Forward+)p > f+p,k,k: Harder combo +59 damage. Better press guard to clear the buffer between the jab and the back knuckle. Works from eileen to kage, then lei fei on closed only (but maybe it's my fault, holding forward AND clearing the buffer in open is hard for me to execute). Then Brad works both stances, then goh i didn't test, should work but by then i had found an followup that is as damaging as this one (see p+k,p below). Then punches whiff vs. Akira and heavier opponents in open stance so i didn't bother.

> b+p+k > p,p,k: Undroppable lightweight combo +58 damage. Works from eileen to vane. Just 1 dmg less that the previous combo but impossible to mess up. Recommended.

> b+p+k > f+p,k,k: Ultra lightweight combo +64 damage. Works on Eileen, Blaze, Aoi and Lion.

> p > b+p+k > f+p,k,k: erdraug online special #2, specially dedicated to Kingo. +69 damage vs Aoi (works on Eileen in closed & Sarah/Vane in open). Now you know what to do when landing a shoulder ram vs an Aoi player who likes to do Tenchi when you are in OS.

16f p+k,p: erdraug online special #3. Again, i'm rather proud to have discovered this one. You've seen that when hitting a staggered opponent p+k,p in VF5FS the move sends them flying away and off-axis. HOWEVER heavyweights and middle heavyweights don't travel that far. Vane's jab still whiffs - however, her Forward+p jab connects! I guess vanessa players don't have the habit of using Forward+p yet since she only got that in VF5FS, that's why i haven"t seen this in any vids either. Anyway, since the F direction must be buffered before inputting the jab string, I recommend inputting the first hit as f+p+k and then holding Forward while inputting everything else.

> Forward+p,p,k: (Middle) Heavyweights combo, +54 damage. Works from Lei fei to Wolf. Lei Fei requires a delay for the initial p+k to connect.

> b+p: Taka special +44. Trivial damage increase over the universal one but gives different oki. Doesn't hurt to mix things up.

19f f+pkg: this will float a staggered opponent and revert to OS. OS has a LOT of options (didn't find anything for taka though, sorry). To keep things simple:

> p > d+p+k > p+k,p: light + middleweight combo +68. Eileen to Goh. No fancy inputs necessary, half the cast takes Aoi damage. Totally worth the risk of using the 19f f+pkg over the 16f k.

> f+p,p,k: heavyweight combo +55. Akira to Jeffry. Braindead easy. Same damage as DS floats though. Not really worth the extra 3 frames.

> df+p > DF+k,p,k: Awkward combo +72. El Blaze, Pai, Lion, Vane. As mentioned earlier, OS has a LOT of options. Couldn't find something that worked in a coherent way - this combo for example is more damaging but doesn't work vs Aoi and Shun. Maybe there are other ways to deal more damage to the rest of the cast.

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For reference WS p staggers sometimes push the opponent too far back for the p+k,p or k followup to work. A second, perfectly buffered WS p could work though - but i'll let somebody with better execution than myself do the testing.

---

TL;DR:

DS f+pkg stagger followups:

> f,f+k,k > p > d+p+k > p+k,k +74 vs superlightweights (eileen, el blaze, aoi).
> df+k,p > p > d+p+k > p+k,p +70 vs all except heavyweights (wolf, jeffry, taka)
> df+k,p > p > f+p,p,k +64 vs wolf, jeffry (strict timing, particularly wolf closed)
> either f+p+k (very low dmg) or uf+k (unsafe if blocked) or b,df+p+k (slow) vs taka

OS f+pkg stagger folowups:

16f

> f+p,k,k +40 vs. everyone.

or

> k > b+p+k > p,p,k +58 vs lightweights
> k > Forward+p > f+p,k,k +59 vs Light Heavyweights (lau, kage & lei fei, Brad?)
> p+k,p > F+p,p,k +54 vs (Middle) heavyweights

or

> k > p > b+p+k > f+p,k,k +69 vs Aoi
> p+k,p > b+p +44 vs Taka

19f

> f+pkg > p > d+p+k > p+k,p +68 vs light- and middleweights.

> f+pkg > f+p,p,k +55 vs heavyweights

 

So Chibitox tested for DS WS p.

p+k,p > Forward+p,p,k doesn't work :-( His advice: stick to k > p > f+p,k,k. It will work on everyone except heavies; vs wolf and jeffry use a second ws p instead of k.

So i thought to myself "Well, that's embarrassing. At least f+pkg always works. Right?"

So i tested for DS b+p CH > f+pkg. Guess what? df+k,p whiffs :-(

My advice: after DS b+p CH > f+pkg stagger use OS f,f+k,k or f+pkg. I edited the previous post for followups.

Against taka b+p+k > f,f+p should work for +41 dmg.

 

I also thought to myself "what about DS p,p crouch stagger? Sure, there's the canned k + oki but how about a combo against opponents that fail at unstaggering and/or online?"

Well, after setting the CPU to block & followup with a low punch, DS p+k,p > f+p,k,k seems to work against every opponent on normal unstagger speed.

However, when i set the CPU to crouch & counterhit, i did p,p and... nothing. I can't get anything to connect except the canned k. Maybe someone with better execution than me could test for a perfectly buffered Ws p and let us know if it floats the opponent.

For the time being IDK how to interpret this: its weird that the same stagger followup would work for the first scanario but fail for the second one.

I guess my advice would be to take the guaranteed dmg from the canned k if you have the life lead, otherwise - if you're feeling lucky - try p+k,p instead?

 

I think i found something weird. Initially i had suggested to use OS f,f+p after OS b+p+k because OS f,f+k+g whiffs from open stance.

HOWEVER i randomly discovered that, if i input it like f,f,f+k+g it actually connects in open stance too!

This also applies after OS k,k,p knockdown (open), d+k,p,p (closed) and f+k,k,p,p (open). The timing is weird and i only manage to pull this off once every 10 or 15 tries but it's there.

The timing is too restrictive for such a limited payoff (the difference in damage between OS f,f+p and f,f+k+g when used against taka knockdowns is only 1 point) but maybe somebody can find a different application?

 

Played a bit yesterday, i realized that DS shoulder ram/OS jump/IS k stagger > OS df+k,p,k > p+k,k is a reasonable replacement to df+k,p > p > d+p+k > p+k,p (or f,f+k,p or DF+k,k) near walls:

If df+k,p,k > p+k,k wall splats > f,f+k,p connects for some extra damage (+82)

So, for reference, OS stagger > df+k,p,k > p+k,k works on every one except Akira, Jacky, Wolf, Jeffry, Taka. Does +68 damage, just a couple of points less than the max damage one, can potentially surpass the max damage one near walls.

Also for reference: OS stagger > df+k,p,k > f,f+p / f+pkg +58 vs Akira, Jacky, Wolf, Jeffry. Braindead easy damage, not very rewarding though.

Unfortunately, also yesterday, i discovered in the dojo, vs Lau, closed foot position, OM to the background > DS f+pkg stagger > df+k whiffs Yet another reason to use OS f,f+k,k after a DS f+pkg stagger IMHO.

The OS df+k string is preferably to be used after OS jump/IS kick stagger, it rarely whiffs in these situations.

 

In fact, the combo IS K->3KP->P->2P+K->66KP works with all char jacky and akira including but not on jeff and wolf... for them use 6PPK after the P

 

I should have been more clear: I meant OS stagger > OS df+k,p,k > p+k,k works on everyone except Akira, Jacky, Wolf, Jeffry, Taka.

You are right, IS K->3KP->P->2P+K->66KP (or p+k,p or df+k,k) also works on jacky and akira, yes, as i mentioned earlier.

I edited my previous post to make it more clear.

 

I put 66KP in red coz when u finish a combo with this move u can get an extra damage bonus with the middle kick 3K (in fact while u do the combo the input is 3_K) I finish almost of my os combo with this move coz the tech roll is hard after this move too... Sometimes i finish with 3P+KK coz if the opponent doesn't tech roll u can get extra damage bonus with 2KP... U get extra bonus and u can go in IS mix up if the opponent tech roll and keep the pressure on him... the P of the 2KP doesn t connect on heavyweigths and akira... so watch out if the opponent tech roll u ll be disadvantaged =) The negative point is that the tech roll is easier with this move... P+KK is good for a wall splatt and i never use P+KP

Edit: I noticed that for the combo IS K->3KP->P->2P+K->66KP against el blaze, eileen and aoi (not verified for aoi) instead of 2P+K u can use the 6K+G move for some bonus damage points...

 

I found a new combo =)))))
IS K->3KP->P->6K+G->66->P->2P+K->66K+G or 6P+K+G or 4P+K
Works on eileen blaze and Aoi =) I m really proud coz the combo is wonderful =)))))
Not tested on the rest of the cast

 

I was thinking, maybe this combo also works after OS side crumple versus the same characters?

ie. OS side CH > jab > > jab > > big finisher ?

EDIT: nevermind, it doesn't work, see Maki's next post