Matrix Revolutions [SPOILERS!!!]

I agree that the amount of sub-text was smaller than the first two (just as the second had less then the first) but as a unified piece there is quite a bit of meat to chew; its just that some will find it unappetizing. I have several friends who didn't care for it at all and their reasonings are quite solid.

I personally don't think the Matrix was origninally conceived as a three part movie. I think they wrote the first and had a lot of ideas that they couldn't fit in the first, crammed in what they could and when it was a success they went back to the drawing board. That's why Lawrence Fishburne talks about signing up for the sequels without even seeing a script, there weren't any.

Neo as Christ or agent of a higher power? I had no problems with it since they couldn't have gotten any more obvious than in the first movie. Love being a defining moment for the wrap-up? Wouldn't it have to be? We're talking about the differences between coded machines and emotional humans...hope and love are the only reasons why the movie makes it to three movies. If they had glossed over this point the movie would have been completely sterile.

I think since all of the groundwork was laid in the first and second movie, the resolution had to be less than philosophically laden and concentrate on the final battles to acheive a kind of end. Even if that end was less than satisfactory.

I liked the ending because it requires work: Zion survives because a balance has been struck between man and machine but major choices are still to be had (descartes demon and the question of what makes an "authentic" life still needs to be addressed but since it is a personal answer it would be awful if the film tried to provide an answer).

Neo died as a sacrafice for the many but essentially only buys time, he couldn't bring about an end, only the removal of a major obstacle to an end. Now the real work begins as it should, real freedom can't be given it has to be earned or its worthless/non-existent.

I like the re-load and sati's role (thanks to her parents) and it gives the title 'revolutions' more resonance.

all in all I did enjoy this film. I thought I'd include a friend's email to me as an end since I thought it was particularly succinct.


GE
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It was just a story, an entertaining 6 hours if you will. It seems that this
was just an episode in the lifetime of the Matrix story. The point is that
Neo sacrificed his life and that of his beloved to temporarily stop the
impending destruction of the human race. A very noble and satisfying goal,
except for the viewing public, who wanted some sort of end, where the humans
save the day.

Granted in this story, I think it is beyond the humans to reclaim the world
and destroy the machines, in any case it would take hundreds of successful
campaigns to reach such a goal, if that goal is envisioned by any of the
Zionists.

So at the end the architect agrees to free all of the minds that want to be,
so that is a nice end as well. If you consider living in a black hole to be
nice. I don't know if I wouldn't prefer to stay in the Matrix. Maybe that is
the point?


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"when jesus didn't have sex with anything, it is symbolic of Neo banging trinity on a cheap couch or making out with persephone or uh... "

Jesus hung out with hookers, 'nuff said

 

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I personally don't think the Matrix was origninally conceived as a three part movie. I think they wrote the first and had a lot of ideas that they couldn't fit in the first, crammed in what they could and when it was a success they went back to the drawing board. That's why Lawrence Fishburne talks about signing up for the sequels without even seeing a script, there weren't any.


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I think they originally wanted one sequel, but eventually it got so long, they decided to split it (twice the length, twice the fun. NOT)

 

Well, i don't know if this has ben said already, but the consensus here in my neck-o'-da-woods is that if they'd taken the few decent scenes from the 2nd movie and added the few decent scenes from the third, they would have had ONE halfway decent flick.

Sure as hell seemed like there was quite a lot of unnecessary and irrelevant shit going on in both sequels...

 

As some people already said, some stuff were unnecessary. I gotta say it wasn't that great, but nonetheless, action is action.

 

Yeah a fully script hadn't been formulated for the actors to read but the basis of smith going renegade and taking over the matrix, specific names of characters and their roles etc had all been considered. I mean I guess you wouldn't write 3 entire scripts and then show them to a movie company before they've even accepted the kinda things you want to do with the first movie.

I particularly enjoyed your friends brief discussion of the films. I have no problems with people hating the films etc but its when people bad mouth something without ever understanding what it is that really annoys me. Nice comments and ponts well made GE.

 

Hehe...so, Elite...are you trying to say that calling me a "loser" and having the audacity to tell ME to "grow up" for making "sniping remarks" shows YOUR maturity now doesn't it? Cheers mate.


Oh, and EmpNovA...this one's for you:

When my pal LM_Akira was referring to Neo's parallel with Jesus, I'm sure he wasn't referring to EVERY ACTION JESUS EVER TOOK. Rather, he was talking about the principle behind his overall contribution and significance. So cool it.

As for your "20 different side stories"...I think you just answered your own argument dude...they were SIDE stories, and unlike the convenience presented by Reloaded to tell those side-stories through the Animatrix and Enter The Matrix, Revolutions didn't do that, because it chose to stay in a movie-only medium. Nothing wrong with that. As for not talking about it in revolutions ITSELF, yeah, I kinda see your point, but then all those critics that accused Revolutions for not working as a movie would have had even more to rant about because the "side stories" would have clogged up the primary plot line. Trust me, I'm an amateur script-writer, and I know what makes a good movie script.

From the previous point, your concerns for the whole importance of Trinity over Morpheus seems to spring. Yes, there is no doubt that Morpheus is a critical character and that he too has a deep relationship with Neo, however, we don't get to see how deep Neo and Trin's relationship develops because there is a 6 month gap between the events of The Matrix and Reloaded. Cut Trin some slack...she must have been through a lot with Neo in the past 6 months, as hinted by their brief conversation at the beginning of Reloaded.

As for your question that began with "ok that's bullshit", I ask that you rephrase that qiestion because in the midst of a fit of rage, your English seems to have deteriorated to the extent that I could not comprehend what you were trying to ask me. If you're trying to ask me how ALL the names link with the Bible (which is what it looked like, forgive me if I'm mistaken) Trinity is a potential parallel with the 'Holy Trinity' as Zion is with the Old Testament. My specifics are a tad rusty so correct me if I'm wrong. As for names like Moepheus (the God of sleep and dreams I think) and the King Nebadchunezzar (I know I spelt that wrong), they too have an affiliation with history contemporary or prior to the birth of Christianity, and may even be affiliated with the Bible itself. Again, correct me on specifics. As for The Matrix, it can be akined to the concept, as it has been in the past, to the idea of Plato's cave. Look it up. Also, don't read to deeply into the names because they really do come secondary to most other things in the plot. Also, I'm not the "hottest Matrix fan on the block". It's just one of my pass times that I've read up on and discussed since watching the oringnal back in 1999. Belive me there are even hotter Matrix enthusiasts than myself, though I thank you for the kind gesture...a light in which I am sure it was meant. As for the last thing you quoted me on before laughing at it, you were actually laughing at someone else's point of discission...I encouraged the user's guts to ponder, no matter how seemingly ridiculous it may seem. Ergo (sorry, had to) you are actually discussin (and severely criticising) his point, saying that it is infact HE who doesn't get the whole Matrix thing...funny, coz I was telling him the same thing. His is the parent post that started this thread. As for Trinity's comment of the sky being beautiful, how many Zionites to you think have actually seen the sky?

And to Jerky...yes I agree with you, and I usually am in support of that, but I was half outta my head with rage when writing it. My condition has since improved.

To Supergolden...yeah, I see your point. But my take on it would be partly that this was all part of the illusion. Or, it was the Wachowskis rounding off the story in the original not knowing whether the other movies would be made. This applies to the rest of the original's plot too, which explains why it works best as an overall movie. Yeah, Smith probably would also be in their real life bodies, but then, they ain't unplugged, so they pose no external threat unless they are unplugged.

And to Nakura...that's a great interpretation! In fact that's what I though when I first saw it, but then I changed my mind. Still, it's totally valid since the Wachowskis won't get off their backsides and give us the answers to the exam.

To stompaloud, I say that, yeah, I was in a fit of rage, and the "nothing personal" part was added once I'd finished typing coz it was late and i couldn't be asked to go back and rewrite everyting to make it sound 'polite'. I'm sorry, but then, like you, I'm not perfect.

I'd love to give a reply to everyone, but, unfortunately, I'm endowed with niether Superman's incredible speed, nor Neo's vast but limited command over the Matrix program.

I will, however, sign off by saying that the "emotionally underwhelming ending"-esque comments should be reconsidered in the light of movies like Ghost In The Shell..a style that what borrowed from intensely by the Matrix. I've since come to realise (hehe...just did it again) that these types of endings are not the sort of ones that you would relate with movies like Die Hard or Bad Boys. The original had quite an explosive ending, but only because the Wachowskis weren't showing us "how it's going to end" but rather, "how it's going to begin". That's why these two chapters are so different from the first.

I'd just like to reitterate my appologies to Namflow for any offence caused. Sorry dude..I didn't mean it! I was just getting so fed up of pepole left, right and centre slagging Revolutions that I just popped when I saw YET ANOTHER forum full of 'I hate Revolutions' comments. Like I said; nothing personal.

Well, let's all be happy that, at least it wasn't as big a disappointing a sequel as M:I-2 (geez, I don't want to start ANOTHER argument!).

Again, I refer you to LM_Akra's posts for views defending the conclusion to this trilogy...and thanks...I've never cause so much of a stir before in my life! It feels good!

 

Not meaning to nitpick or anything but the little paragraph aimed at me isn't even written properly. Not such a big deal I know, but since you were obviously trying so hard to sound clever I thought I'd point it out.

The obvious difference between your sniping remarks and my calling you a loser fanboy is simple. Read through your original post to Namflow and then try and tell me you were justified in trying to call him stupid or "dead inside". All because he has different views on a movie than you do. If that doesn't make you a loser fanboy then I don't know what does. Don't bother replying with more arguments towards me, just let it go and maybe we can keep it civil and on topic (which was the problem I had with you in the first place).

 

I thought Revolutions was a pretty good movie, better than Reloaded. A lot of stuff was thrown in the movie for symbolic purposes. And to those who don't believe the religious references in the movie (especially christian), the Wachowski Brothers themselves said that Neo is an allusion to Christ.

 

Yes, my sentence was a bit off (like I said, I'm pressed for time) and yes, you are nitpicking. You wanna keep this civil, fine by me. By the way, I DID apologise. For a relatively small error, but I apologised nonetheless...swallowing your pride is sometimes more important than enforcing it in showing how "civil" you really are. I know I'm evil and everything, but cut me some slack. You don't even know me...so please don't just read the parts of my posts that make you feel big and make me look bad.

Anyways, asside from that, yeah I agree with the previous post...Matrix Revolutions may well have been seen as a superior movie to its predecessor, but (again, from my own writing experience, and those of others) I can say that the middle of any story tends to sag. Check out any other movie...the middle is almost always the least active in terms of either resolution or the creation of an obstacle or setting up of a situation/dynamic, so, on that front, I'd say Reloaded didn't do too badly for itself as a 'middle-man' as it were...much like The Two Towers.

Please keep 'em coming...yes, even you Elite...it's nice to have in-depth responses for or against the movie...as opposed to the ususal "it's shit" analysis I get from some of my mates.

 

Lol underneath all the phsycological bullshit that the matrix 2 and 3 have, they are just very average movies.

 

My friend Archangel...let's not forget that there were a plethora of people who fell asleep during the first half of the original. These are very non-mainstream movies, but on that note, the Wachowskis did try and tone down the depth of the original slightly and structure it as a more traditional Hollywood movie to try and accomodate for as wide an audience as possible. However, after the success of the original, the Wachowskis probably thought that they now had the opportunity to break through the surface and into even deeper ground, and in so doing, they lost a lot of people along the way. Me included! It's why I spent so much time going over Reloaded until it finally made sense to me, and believe me when I tell you that it really was worth it - it's why people like me and LM_Akira keep telling people to read up, research and re-watch coz these aren't just one-time movies that make sense as you're going along. So at least take it into consideration. It's why people like Archangel think that the last two chapters really "are just very average movies". I mean, hey, that's your point of view and who am I to even try and convince you otherwise...but at least consider that a total stranger IS trying so bloody hard to convince you of this trilogy's worth. Surely that's gotta be something worth thinking about?

Kewl, just want to clarify that I hold no bitterness or resentment towards Elite (how could I, he's a fellow Brit /versus/images/graemlins/grin.giflol) and that I hope people keep posting on this thread.

Long live the revolution!

 

There just movies at the end of the day and not very good ones at that. Yeah yeah it has so many relations with many other things,twist and turns bla bla bla bla bla,there both action movies and nothing new or slightly original was done in either of them.Apart from poor cg.

 

matrix has a great story and pholosophy..

but the films don't do it justice..... people are going to watch it trying to spot little background drops which link together when the exicution of the film has just lost the plot!

it's like playing the game not to play a game?

or watch the film not to watch a film??

matrix fans then tell me i don't understand: no i would'nt unless i have to look at every matrix birthday card and car hubcap for hidden story chunks... why did'nt they just release a matrix 7ton book!? instead of spoiling part 1's distinct style with a perfect example of not how to act when you have that kind of CG capability?

the only think which i was impressed with in revolutions was the scene at the beginning where the guys were walking on the celing... great character concept, i liked the style.

btw - did anyone else almost fall asleep when trinity spent leik half an hour preaching before she actually dies? geez, i've see atleast half a billion people in the film die withing one swipe... it's aint fair i tell JAA!!

(atlast that anoying slut is dead anywyz /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

 

Like I said, my friend, the Wachowskis broke through the surface. To appreciate what they've given us, you'll have to do the same.

Oh, and the CG is not "poor". It's the most realistic human characters seen thus far on a screen. Granted, you can tell the difference between the real ones and the CG ones, but caling the CG "poor" just isn't fair in my view.

I know you were probably expecting a louder, more grand and extravagant ending (like about 95% of the cinema-going population), as opposed to the more mellow and thoughtful one that we got, but I really think that it would have been missing the point of the last one being about death. After all, everything that has a beginning, has an end.

What is The Matrix? The Matrix is a condrum, a puzzle, a cyber-punk Alice In Wonderland experience following the path of mankind's saviour, showing him breaking the cycle (the whole point of Revolutions, hence the title) and sarificing himself and the woman he loves for the rest of humanity. It's the story of a Christ-like figure who began his ascention sitting in front of a computer screen searching for an answer, and was still learning the purpose of his life until his death. It's a saga that's been undermined by millions, and appreciated by a few, with time as its jury to see whether or not it holds up against a barage of superficial, commercial cynicisms to be seen as one of the great pinnacles of the human imagination...and it has lots of crazy Kung Fu.



Peace out.

 

you obviously did'nt read my post very well... take another look, some of it may be contrary to what you are pointing out to me..

btw, the whole story of the matrix is not nesecarily a "break through" as it is so blatantly based on the bible. I loved the original, it had style both visually and narratively.... i even liked part 2, but part 3 fluffed it... it has no style whatsoever..

 

Sorry pal, I must have been writing my post at the same time as you coz I never saw your one til after I'd posted mine. Yeah, well my brains hurting a bit, but I did find a pretty balanced review highlighting what was good and bad about the movie. I reckon it's the fairest review I've read, seeing as most of them are either saying "oh, it was totally rubbish" or "yeah, it was perfect". Check it out.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-1127201/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1214259

Went through Rotten Tomoatoes to find this one, so excuse the banner in the left.

Outta here.

 

lol the cg is awfull take a good look at final fantasy the spirits within or even the animatrix the episode that square done, there are some good example's of cg. I'm not trying to rate the two film's on it's cg but if your gonna over use it like they did so many times through 2 and 3 then at least get it right and try to do something groundbreaking with it.

Man i cant be bothered to argue with u guys anymore, it's just funny to see how good u guys think those 2 films are just becuase the brothers have found possible the most complex (ergo,vi sa ve,concordantly and everything that has a beggining has an end) way to tell a quite simple story.

 

[ QUOTE ]
archangel said:
There just movies at the end of the day and not very good ones at that. Yeah yeah it has so many relations with many other things,twist and turns bla bla bla bla bla,there both action movies and nothing new or slightly original was done in either of them.Apart from poor cg.

Lol underneath all the phsycological bullshit that the matrix 2 and 3 have, they are just very average movies.

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Yes!! Matrix 1 was a damn good all around eclectic flavoured movie that appealed to a wide range of generations without having to sarcrafice anything originally intended for it. Matrix 1 didn't have to incorporate love and jesus and all that directly in the movie's dialogue...they assumed (unlike Matrix 3) that people wouldn't need to see a large burning cross on Neo in order to make a parralel between his actions, and the actions of Jesus...if you could recognize the names of Trinity, Morpheus and correlate them to the bible, hey more power to you, but if you couldn't, Matrix 1 was still a damn good sci-fi action movie without all that stuff...the next two in the trilogy were neither, both average movies and not eclectically appealing....

AA hit the nail on the head imho.... (notice by opinion it's not a fact *cough cough*)
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max314 said:
let's not forget that there were a plethora of people who fell asleep during the first half of the original. These are very non-mainstream movies, but on that note, the Wachowskis did try and tone down the depth of the original slightly and structure it as a more traditional Hollywood movie to try and accomodate for as wide an audience as possible.

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how totally wrong you are...you seriously need to examine the budget and choreography of the matrix movies comparatively before you assume anything about the film's gear towards a designated audience...

first of all, the first Matrix film was meant to be an extrordinary sci-fi film combining an extensive plot written for all ages of people, and was to be filmed in a such a distinctive style that it wouldn't need all that added Hollywood crap...take a look at the fight scene's in M1 compared to M2-3....in M1 you can just tell the way it is filmed how they wanted it portrayed..but in M2-3 they hired martial art guys (like Crouch Tiger style) which do not fit in with the traditional (based off of M1) matrix style fights..
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However, after the success of the original, the Wachowskis probably thought that they now had the opportunity to break through the surface and into even deeper ground, and in so doing, they lost a lot of people along the way.

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well coming from a capitalistic society it's pretty much evident over here in the states that the last two Matrix films were done with a huge priority of making them lucrative, which judging by recent box office reports would indicate marginal success...what I mean is, they didn't really prioritive themselves with making these movies all philisophical and deep, they wanted to make money..period..and don't argue this..because if you honestly think contrarily...you have alot of Matrix to examine..

Shang said a while back something like "...where are all the white people in Zion " which was referring to what I like to call, the " scumbag rave dance " scene...in which there are about 213982173 African nipples jumping up and down on the screen..and then flashing pictures of Neo's white guy ass....if you wanna tell me how deep and spiritual these scene's were...go ahead..lol..but they were there to make money..because sex sells big..and that's what the Wbros. aimed to do.
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After all, everything that has a beginning, has an end.

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again it seems that you don't understand shit about the matrix films...the reason they called this revolutions is because nothing has a beginning or end..it's a revolution meaning it keeps coming back around...revolving...so maybe the movie ended..you honesly think the matrx ended..lol...you'll be seeing Animatrix type stuff all over..hell...maybe the brothers will write even more..time will tell..but in a revolution..(like the matrix) nothing has an end...Neo didn't break the cycle..the Gate Keeper or whatever ( the guy in the room with the TV's) said there have been many other "ones," what's to stop the machines from killing another Zion...nothing..hence the cycle continues (hopefully in Matrix 4: recycling)...
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B_Knuckle said
the whole story of the matrix is not nesecarily a "break through" as it is so blatantly based on the bible. I loved the original, it had style both visually and narratively.... i even liked part 2, but part 3 fluffed it... it has no style whatsoever..

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yah...part one was an original movie with tons of substance and style...it was just oozing and dripping with style, bullet time is one of the most copied effects in recent time..but M2&3 had to borrow from crouching tiger and porno/dance films, that peeved more than enough of previous matrix fans...I'm out

 

I really believe they shouldn't have made Reloaded and Revolutions at all. The first one ended beautifully and that's where it should've ended. Now it's like they're trying to make a 9 hour movie with 90 mins of solid material. That's why so many people don't like it. They have to fill it up with BS, it's inevitable. Star Wars can have many episodes because the story is really big indeed, but this is just not the same.

I digged the concept of the Matrix but after i discovered that it was Colonel Sanders who built it, it kinda turned me off. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif