mCing low opponents(specifically Akira)

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ReCharredSigh, Apr 18, 2002.

  1. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    I'm just kinda curious; how much frame initiative does Akira need to mC a crouching opponent with his DblPm?

    I doubt that it's exactly the speed of the DblPm(12 frames), since a low croucher can't block middle attacks. Perhaps there's a special formula for this case(execution speed minus a certain fixed number)

    Or maybe I'm wrong(since people can buffer instant stands), but someone point this out for me?
     
  2. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    I doubt that it's exactly the speed of the DblPm(12 frames), since a low croucher can't block middle attacks. Perhaps there's a special formula for this case(execution speed minus a certain fixed number)

    <hr></blockquote>

    Nope, your first line of analysis is exactly right - Akira only needs a 12 frame advantage to be guaranteed a mC after blocking an opponent's move. Thus after blocking Lion's d/b+p (frame disadvantage to Lion on block 12 frames), Akira would have a guaranteed doublepalm. Of course most Akira's would be waiting for the continuation p, so I doubt any Lion would really worry too much.

    But where your question is particularly useful is this - most of the time, if you block a low rising attack, you have a 12 frame advantage.

    -Jason


    P.S. I think where you're being thrown off in your analysis is this - even if your character is in a crouch position, if you stand (by letting the stick go into neutral) and hold guard, you will "auto-stand" to block any mid attacks. Same thing with "auto-crouching" to block low attacks from a standing position. It doesn't take any frames at all for your character to switch from high to low in order to block an attack. Now for evading high or low throws, on the other hand...
     
  3. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    I think where you're being thrown off in your analysis is this - even if your character is in a crouch position, if you stand (by letting the stick go into neutral) and hold guard, you will "auto-stand" to block any mid attacks. Same thing with "auto-crouching" to block low attacks from a standing position. It doesn't take any frames at all for your character to switch from high to low in order to block an attack. Now for evading high or low throws, on the other hand...

    Uh...no. Unless the game engine has changed since VF2/3, it still requires a couple of frames to get from a crouching position to a standing position, and vice versa.
    When you crouch(guarding or not) and let the joystick go back to neutral, your character is still registered as crouching for the first 10 frames, the character is only registered as standing on the 11th frame, and it continues to be so till it reaches the 20th frame. Its the same deal for standing--->crouching.
    All this is what enabled players to fuzzy block in VF2/3 i.e block mids AND defend against high throws at the same time. Its kind of difficult to fuzzy block in VF4 cause there is an 8f ex for high throws, because...you can figure out the rest.

    What I can't really figure out are the exceptions to this rule. It seems that all this does not apply right after an attack has been initiated. I mean obviously if I add the 10f to say, a low move with -5 disadvantage(when blocked), it becomes elbow-counterable!!!??? Can't be...
    My explanation to this is that when an attack is initiated, the player(attacker) can sort of "buffer" in whatever position(standing/crouching) he/she prefers in the recovery phase. So a player is already considered to be in the "process of standing" in the recovery phase after a low attack(if he doesn't hold down of course).
     
  4. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    My explanation to this is that when an attack is initiated, the player(attacker) can sort of "buffer" in whatever position(standing/crouching) he/she prefers in the recovery phase. So a player is already considered to be in the "process of standing" in the recovery phase after a low attack(if he doesn't hold down of course).

    <hr></blockquote>

    Just to be doubly clear - we're talking about the same thing. I was only referring to situations where you are blocking an attack of your opponent. I was not talking about situations where you are just hitting up and down while your opponent does nothing. In that case it would take (is it still 10?) frames for you to move from standing to crouch, which is why if you just hit down then f+p you won't be able to do Akira's singlepalm. (unless you buffer in a crouch dash which will give you an instant crouch, or a dash forward or backwards for an instant stand.)

    Re-read the post - It only deals with the computer instantly registering your change from standing to crouching or vice versa when you are blocking attacks.

    Though I disagree as to your analysis of why. I don't think it has to do with buffering during recovery or whatnot. I think the bottom line is during the "hit" phase of your opponent's attack, the computer will register you instantly in the position you are holding the joystick at that time. It doesn't matter if you're in recovery or not when your opponent inputs his attack, you will be able to crouch to block a low attack if you 1) are not in recovery during the "hit" phase of your opponent's attack and 2) you are holding down.

    And I think this is why fuzzy guarding worked - because the computer didn't consider a throw as the type of attack that would trigger an "insta" crouch. Though my understanding of fuzzy guarding is weak and I could be very wrong. Perhaps in that regard you may be correct, i simply don't know.

    -Jason
     
  5. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    thanks; i know the DblPm is FAST, but i had thought there was some time before the opponent could fully stand; your pointing out of how an instant stand occurs when in a low position holding guard pointed out the missing link; thanks again.
     
  6. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    Hmm...interesting. I've always thought that the player
    needs to buffer in a crouch(if standing) 10f before the hit
    frame to block low moves(and vice versa), because I can
    never block low moves(even those super slow sweeps) on
    reflex. Doh...guess its just my stupid reflexes...
     

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