Minor Balance Related Pet Peeves

So I've been playing around with a bunch of different characters and there are just some balance issues I have a hard time justifying. Maybe you guys have similar pet peeves? Mine are:

1) Pai has TWO 60pt throws, one of which was made easier to do in VF5. I think her 2_6p+g should be 55pts, and 180 back p+g should be 50pts. I mean seriously, why does her 180 back reward her with more damage than Goh and Blaze's 180 back throws? Pai's too goddam versatile!

2)I think Lei's Ura Koko Shiki stance is too strong. He has a butt crumble mid and foot crumble low, both of which are safe on block and grant huge damage combos if they hit (assuming you are not superman when it comes to struggling). IIRC, he also has a circular and a fast high so he covers all bases. The only limiting factor is that he can only really get into Ura Koko from 6p and Bokutai, but I still think the stance is too powerful.

3) Ground throws should not grant you an almost guaranteed ground punch! 30 pts is enough. Goh and Aoi, I'm looking at you.

4) I think Shun drink point depletion calculation should go back to the old style where they were decreased by % and not by just 1 or 2.

So what about you guys? Any pet peeves?

 

Well I've got an addition to number 4 there...

Shun is the only one with such a powerful tool to force people to come to him. Once he gets past ten drinks+ there's no way you can get him back down again. The latter ties in with your statement.

 

I have one but i'm no vet to vf so be kind if you disagree:

Wolf's giant swing has uber damage and seems easy to pull off. It can be done in a smooth motion with little risk. Is it easy to escape or something? I don't feel that a half-circle motion for a throw should warrant so much damage...unless of course it IS easy to break or has a more forgiving escape period.

Someone more knowledgable please explain.

 

It's just as easy to escape as any other throw, plus you can tech 20 points out of the damage on landing, unless you're thrown into a wall.

 

Thanks for the info, Destro.

 

The damage on /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is actually only 50 if you tech roll. I also think her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif has been somewhat nerfed, the stagger seems lesser now.

But why the hell am I defending Pai? Why does that bitch have low throws? No logic!

Actually, to perform the high damaging version of the Giant Swing you have to input the half circle in the fastest possible way (one frame for each direction or something like that). If you fail you'll get a version with less damage....this is all in the Command mode of VF5 btw /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

But the TR timing is not easy (it's like the ones you have to get on a slam). Also, if you miss the TR on the 2_6p+g or her 180 back, Pai gets an almost guaranteed down punch. Yeargh.

Pai is just a bitch in general. Ridiculously fast, 14 frame k which juggles on regular hit (albeit a high) with a low or mid follow, full circulars on every level, atemis, unpunishable lows, great throws, even great sabakis.

She is my pet peeve character.

 

Shun is worst than Pai from what I can see, but while were on that bitch Pai.


Why is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif SAFE!?!?? Yes it's a big disadvantage but SAFE?!?! The damage off those things, especially the mid launcher is insane.

 

Oh, yeah. Why is everyone in this game so unbalanced powerfull, if you know how to use that char?
Why have Jeffry so meny easy juggles for 60+ of easy damage and that jugglestarters are just -13? Yes, it means guaranteed throw, but the timing is not easy, right?
Why is Lei so damn safe in all his stances? Why he have so many great sabaki tools?
Why have Lion 15-frame (ok, high) jugglestarter which is only -2 on block and which gives him 80+ of easy damage on MC?
Why have Kage his TFT and why he have so great hit-or-block hitthrow?
Why I can whine like this about every single one character in this (or any other fighting) game?

Look, VF - and no other fighting game - is not completly balanced. And yes, some things are harder to defeat against that others. But this does not mean anything. In Tekken 4 Jin and Steve was superbs; but you can meet some good players which can defeat them with "low-tier" characters like Christie, Julia, Hwoarang... Only thing about them was they spend their time by learning the game instead just whining around it's unbalacebility and switching for Jin - like many others. You can do the same. You can learn how to break throws, like to roll... Or you can switch for Pai/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

Everyone is a bullshit character when playing as El Blaze (don't plan to), Aoi (wish I could), and Jeffry (main).

Lei-Fei has too much advantage on block for too many moves. I don't see why.

I think it would make sense that a character like Jeffry would have tons of moves that give advantage on block:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

Would this make him broken? Other than hcfP+K, all are linear. I mean all the characters have weak-ass looking attacks that give advantage on block. Jeffry, a fucking fat fuck swinging his entire body at tiny opponents, gets no advantage while Akira has a 14i combo starter that gives +1 on block and it essentially "giving someone the 'Hand' biiiitch." Makes sense? I don't thing so.

Wah wah.

Complaining about shit does nothing, I'm going back to playing EVO now.

 

They aren't.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why have Jeffry so meny easy juggles for 60+ of easy damage and that jugglestarters are just -13? Yes, it means guaranteed throw, but the timing is not easy, right?</div></div>
Did you even read what you just wrote?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is Lei so damn safe in all his stances?</div></div>
He's not.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why he have so many great sabaki tools?</div></div>
Because all of them are (i) limited in what they can sabaki (half circle p+k) (ii) very punishable on block (koko shiki p) or (iii) grant very little damage on hit (nehan shiki p+k).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why have Lion 15-frame (ok, high) jugglestarter which is only -2 on block and which gives him 80+ of easy damage on MC?</div></div>
Because it's a high attack that requires MC to grant big damage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why have Kage his TFT and why he have so great hit-or-block hitthrow?</div></div>
TFT grants less damage than most grappler's big throws. His hit/block shift throw is high and has a slow start.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why I can whine like this about every single one character in this (or any other fighting) game?</div></div>
Because you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. If you actually used a good example that isn't fucking stupid then I might actually think you have a point. As of now, you don't.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look, VF - and no other fighting game - is not completly balanced. And yes, some things are harder to defeat against that others. But this does not mean anything. In Tekken 4 Jin and Steve was superbs; but you can meet some good players which can defeat them with "low-tier" characters like Christie, Julia, Hwoarang... Only thing about them was they spend their time by learning the game instead just whining around it's unbalacebility and switching for Jin - like many others. You can do the same. You can learn how to break throws, like to roll... Or you can switch for Pai/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif </div></div>
Um, ok.

I'm not even saying that the game is unbalanced. I'm saying that these are my pet peeves. They make no sense to me in light of the greater context of the game as a whole. I'm not saying one character is too powerful. I think the game is generally well balanced. But these small things, which would only affect probably less than 10% of games anyway are small things that I find annoying and that make no sense.

 

I think Pai's K is annoying as hell too, but I can sort of understand 2_6p. It requires MC for big damage, just like Wolf / Goh's knee (and lots of other moves that require MC for big damage).

That's fair considering I can get about 70 - 80 pts of damage with Goh's MC knee, which is a much easier to execute combo than Pai's 70 - 80 pt combos off counter 2_6p. But the difficulty of execution for Pai is again balanced by the fact that Pai's 2_6p is double handed, which makes it unreversable / unsabakiable for most. So all in all, I think Pai's 2_6p is pretty reasonable.

 

I just started playing pai in vf5, so take this with a grain of salt, but . . .

Special low, so can be guarded high; no real mixup after her K is guarded. It's much more unsafe than e.g. other character's high 14 frame combo starters (standing palm), which I guess is the tradeoff she gets for having a followup.

Her only full circular mids (aside from dodge attack, which everyone has) are her charge kicks, which are pretty interruptable.

 

When I used to play VF2 on the Saturn, a friend of mine dubbed her "Virtua Bitch". True story!

 

Pai's launches off the double plam CH can lead you to a wall, which Wolf's knee doesn't. That bounce crap can take mad sauce life, especially from what I see of Pai in cage stages and what not.

Also Wolf's knee is only +1 on hit and 17 frames, compare that to 16 frames and +4 on hit with Pai's double palm.

My 16 frame mid combo start (serpent cannon) with Sarah is -12 on block first hit and -15 on block second. While the trade off is I can launch on normal, I don't get half the range or nearly as much damage as Pai.

At the very least, Pai's double lift palm should be something like -9 or -10. It having less disadvantage than her stand K makes no sense.

 

What you're complaining about there is the bounce system, not pai's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in particular.

MC only floaters should not be more punishable on block than normal hit floaters.

 

Yes. All my arguments have about the same value as that yours about D,f+P+G beeng too strong because it is hard to time your Tr after it to reduce it's damage...

 

It was about time that Pai was broken, great balls on the part of AM2 (although this is a carry over from Evo)
People are actually moaning about Shun and Pai! wow! this is great keep it up! makes a change from Akira, Jackey, Kage and Lau from the 'old' days!
Next shock in VF5 'Revo'; Wah! Jeffery broken!?!?

 

TFT

Is Pai really that powerful? I play her as a secondary character and don't feel that she is so dominant. They totally weakened her low sweep after ppp. You used to be able to play a low throw, low sweep guessing game that was lots of fun. that is gone now. Is she whopping ass in Japan or anything?

My only gripe is TFT. It should be a 270 for its ring out potential. You can be not very good at the game and still beat people better than you by throwing out a shitload of tft's.

I wonder if AM2 leaves it in the game because Japanese players think it is not kosher to spam it a lot so it doesn't get used as much a ring out monster. Or maybe Japanese players are just used to escaping it out of habit so it is less of an issue. Or maybe it is some combination of the two. Nerf that shit, AM2!

 

Re: TFT

TFT could be done harder to perform, but not taken away from Kage... come on, it's like taking hadouken and shoryuuken from ryu and ken at the same time!

And for those complaining about Pai. Please spend some time with this char, and try to do decent combos and win a lot (with other people) using standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
You'll see that it's not just a piece of cake, and that having the latter move quite safe is justified.