MoAT2001: Sticking to your guns

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Myke, Apr 10, 2001.

  1. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Should players stick to one team?
    <INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="1"> Yes, during the whole tournament (Round Robin and Double Elimination phase)
    <INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="2"> Only during a single tournament phase (RR or DE)
    <INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="3"> No, allow players to change their team anytime
    <INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT NAME="PollSubmit" VALUE="$lang{'SUB_VOTE'}" CLASS="buttons"></FORM>

    It would be appreciated if you post the reasoning behind your vote as well.

    For me, I would prefer that everyone sticks to their single team throughout the entire tournament. The reason being is that I like the idea of 'sticking to your guns' as kbcat would put it, and see how well one performs with their chosen team. So everyone has to choose and prepare their team carefully.

    It will also eliminate the possibility of desperate jackyx3 teams at the last minute should someone decide they're not doing as well as they hoped. There's nothing wrong with choosing jackyx3, but they have to stick to that team from start to finish.
  2. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    My vote:

    If it's 5 squares, yes, I vote for players to stick to their teams.

    If it's 3 squares, I vote no.

    I also think the whole tournament, including RR and DE, should be the same. This way you'll avoid people using characters in RR they don't plan to use in DE and messing up the seedings, not to mention the ability for other players to scout how they play. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    If it's 5 squares, yes, I vote for players to stick to their teams.

    If it's 3 squares, I vote no.

    The biggest concern with 5 character teams is the total amount of time it's going to take to run the tournament, especially during the RR phase. While in Toronto this past weekend, we discussed the tournament and worked out how long the RR would take. Note, it's not a traditional round robin where everyone plays everyone exactly once. The format is more along the lines of one player sits at the machine and then plays all the remaining players, one by one. When he's finished, he gets up and gives the seat to the next 'iron man' who will then do the same. As you can see, everyone will play everyone else more than once. To be more precise, it's exacly twice.

    So if we have N players, then there will be (N^2 - N) games played.

    Going off Llanfair's previous MoAT update, I counted roughly 15 people who will be attending. So the number of games required to play during the RR phase is 15^2 - 15 = 210.

    3 character team
    Total RR time required = 210 games * 5 maximum rounds * 30 sec per round = 8 hrs 45 mins

    4 character team
    Total RR time required = 210 games * 7 maximum rounds * 30 sec per round = 12 hrs 15 mins

    5 character team
    Total RR time required = 210 games * 9 maximum rounds * 30 sec per round = 15 hrs 45 mins

    Now it's obvious that every match won't go a full 30 seconds and maximum rounds, but you have to factor in the time it takes to get people on the machine, choosing their characters, playing the game, and a bit of DC loading time for good measure :) So in the end, the above estimates would probably be accurate at the end of the day.

    But having said all that, I've stupidly assumed that it's all being done on the one machine, and that's not true. From what I understand there'll be a few DCs running in parallel, so I guess you can divide the above estimates by the number of DCs being used at the time.

    If we have 3 DCs then the 15 hr approximation for 5 character teams becomes 5 hrs instead, which I think isn't unreasonable.

    The time required to run the DE phase is tiny in comparison. Given N players, the number of games to be played becomes (2N - 1). With 15 players, that's 29 games which gives:

    3 character teams
    Total DE time required = 29 games * 5 maximum rounds * 30 sec per round = 1 hr 12 mins

    4 character teams
    Total DE time required = 29 games * 7 maximum rounds * 30 sec per round = 1 hr 40 mins

    5 character teams
    Total DE time required = 29 games * 9 maximum rounds * 30 sec per round = 2 hrs 10 mins

    Again, this time is reduced according to the number of DCs used concurrently to run the DE phase. Personally, I would prefer the one DC used for the DE so that nobody misses any of the action.

    Maybe as a compromise we can have 3 character teams for the RR phase, and 4 or 5 character teams for the DE. This way everyone can keep an ace (or two) up their sleeve for the actual tourney.

    Just some food for thought for the organisers :)
  4. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    You could also put another option.... Which seems to be common in many US tournaments as far as I know.

    "Loser has option to change team"

    I'm interested in seeing what others have to say about this one.

    I voted for "No, allow players to change their team anytime" because I feel that one of the goals for this tournament is to have a test of applied skill in the game. To claim dominance or at least victory. (Mind you, I'm sure I'll be in the bottom 2 when I go)

    I think that matchups are a strong and valid point in VF. Matchups are even debatable in the specifics, but it seems like everyone has a theory that some characters are blatantly overpowering on certain other characters. But being able to change the team would allow the players to sort of go all out in terms of choosing a strategy (under restricted time to think about it of course) based on the situation or thoughts on hand at the time.

    In the end, there really isn't any excuses for losing based on character selection except maybe time running out on the selection screen.

    I also believe that there will be players who stick to the same team about 80% while others will probably switch up a lot.

    You can argue that sticking to your guns would ensure that people think really, really hard about their teams in a universal sense. Perhaps even that the theories of matchups or dominating characters may even find much bigger support (in US play anyways). And that's definitely valid, but my values feel that competition is complete when people can choose their weapons in anticipation or based on a win or a loss.

    I'm also definitely down with just the loser getting the option to choose to change teams. It would allow him a sort of handicap for losing the previous round. Is this good or bad? Depends on your values on the whole thing, I guess. But at least excuses like, "if I had used X, Y, and Z instead, I would have owned his ass" are less likely.

    My final statement: I am for either "change players anytime" or "let the loser change" because I believe that it reduces unnecessary excuses, but more importantly I feel it provides a much more challenging and proving environment of competition for a tournament which is focusing on the overall VF3tb player.

  5. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Chanchai, I disagree for one reason alone. I don't think people should choose their characters for a match based on what their opponent has chosen. We don't want to go through tossing a coin to see who gets to choose first - do you see what I mean? If the teams are pre-picked, then there's no one changing their tune just because someone's playing a certain team or character - and let me assure you, this happens all the time. Let me use some examples:

    "Oh look, he's chosen Taka, hmm...let me use Lion this time.."

    or "Damn, he's got Jacky in there now, my normal team wouldn't fare as well so I'm going to switch it up..."

    or even "Look how shitty he performs against Shun, my Shun's not too bad so I'll pick him when my turn comes up and give him a hard time..."

    These always go on at the arcade, at gatherings, whenever. We want to avoid this.


    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
  6. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    My sentiments exactly...
    nothing worse than the challenger waiting for me to choose my line up of who is my 1st, 2nd 3rd character n go
    'OH , I'll use (A) to counter first character , (B) to counter second, (C) to counter third.

    I vote no change cause hey facts are, if u're good enuff...Picking whatever character does not affect the outcome.

    Sure there are disadvantages to be met (meaing, whoever u choose could be disadvantaged against the opponent's selection of fighters)

    But overcoming these disadvantages and winning ur that's where the REAL SKILLZ come in.

    <font color=red>SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN'
  7. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    Absolutely, Llanfair. I agree - Stick to your guns MOFOs!!

    <font color=red>Jyunen hayaindayo!</font color=red>

    <font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>
  8. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Well, it's your tournament and I'm cool with what you pick. Just letting you know my preference, but I'm fine with sticking to one team (the good part is that I can just focus on certain characters instead of allowing extra stress when I'm competing).

    I had some other suggestions in mind, but they'll probably just make the tournament more complicated (assisted with potential bitching from players during play), and well... It's already gonna be a big tournament, guess we'll just want to run it as smooth and fast as possible. Sticking to your guns definitely aids this, I'll admit. (btw, principally I don't have anything against Sticking to Your Guns, just a preference over it). One of the suggestions was something like everyone having a main team but after a lost match, they get a limited amount of variation on their team (like able to change order or substitute another character for one of their characters), when they fight a new challenger, they start the match with their original team.

    How much are we going to be able to switch the order, if at all?

    Next question: Outside of the round robin tournament, who gets to pick the side (1p or 2p side) and stage in the very first match between any two players. I can figure that in Round Robin, it would either be the challenger or the iron man (person who is to fight consecutively). But in double elimination, how do we determine who makes the first choice?

  9. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    I agree with SummErs. If you have skill, it should not make a difference who you pick. <font color=yellow>Stick to your guns!</font color=yellow>

    I also feel that I'll be coming in at the bottom 2 (you're not alone Chanchai/versus/images/icons/smile.gif).

  10. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    > If you have skill, it should not make a difference who you pick. Stick to your guns!

    um...if you think it doesn't matter, then why not let people do whatever they want?
  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    The official rules to MoAT '01 coming out soon?

    Hehe, I'd like to ask.... Can we two-gun this thing? Register two teams and have a choice to use them? (Figuring out one single team has been driving me nuts lately.... especially assuming it'll be 3 character teams)

    Lack of experience sucks...

  12. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Hey hey - yeah, the rules will be out soon. I apologize to all wanting to attend for my lack of information/communication these last couple weeks. But Llanfair has one more exam tomorrow - then he's done. ;)

    As far as sticking to your guns, it was discussed a bit further and was decided that it will likely not happen. The very last thing we would want is for someone to whine about not winning because they couldn't play who they wanted, etc.


    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
  13. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Damn, you lucky bastard! I still have a 15 page paper and 2 final exams left...

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