Morals

About Spotlite's Post,

46P+K followed by Dbl palm beats almost everything but LP, HP, and an elbow. It crashes Kage's upper,too. What makes the situation even better for Akira is he has Shoulder ram to use. SR can beat LPs and some characters elbows in that situation thanks to its weird properties.

Because of this, even after people block a move like 46P+K, they hesitate to attack Akira back. I've seen Japanese players do nothing after they block 46P+K, hoping Akira'd do shoulder ram or DBL palm. I saw some Japanese players choose to evade after blocking the move out of the same expectations. The players in OH, who are pretty familair with Akira, also often wait to see what I do after blocking 46 P+K.


IMO, I find it really interesting to have this kind of "another layer" of mind game in VF.

Recently,in the match between Homestay Akira vs Edo Kage in the Final tournament, at the fianl moment in the final round, Edo blocked Homestay's 46P+K but decided to nothing and wound up getting thrown to lose the match.

It's out of the "another layer" of VF mind game. Edo's got thrown when he has +3 because Homestay knew and saw the situation.

 

From what I learned, there is a lot more layered mind games in VF then I can see playing Tekken. Homestay Akira's style is very interesting to see in the tourney vids. There are moments when Homestay knew what kind of situation he was seeing and just execute it beautifully.

I really don't know much about these Morals myself but I think I'm getting used to the concept.

 

AND Akira can do ARE after that accursed move, which makes delay-attacks dangerous with the 12-frame byakko. *shakes head*

 

Personally, I find..it's dependant on who I use..

If I use say..Akira or Kage..I am definitely an abare type.

If I use Jacky, I'm definitely a moralist with the occasional gamble...

reason being..I do not have super moves to save my ass when using Jacky..

Unlike that idiot Akira...it's just worthwhile taking constant gambles with him...since his return is cho duber good.

I think it also explains why using Akira..I can win even meishou rank players in Japan..but with Jacky...I struggle against anyone above tsuwamono...plus, they are inherently so kick ass against Jacky..

(Note : I am not trying to brag here. Plz do not misinterpret. I am merely using my two diff mindsets as an example. For what it is worth, I still suck)

Anyway, sure Jacky can net great damage too. And for the longest time, I played him with an abare mindset...the difference is..if my gamble with akira fails..I am still relatively safe...idiot moves like yoho,knee,shrm all only either p or throw counterable...SDE/DE ..nothing describes the pure awesomeness of Akira. Plus, since I abare so much with AKira., I find alot of totally 'WTF' situations like...wolf guards my DE...if he does screw hook, my d/f p+k will actually coz the screw hook to whiff n mC wolf instead....same with kage's d+k+g.

But with Jacky..it's always so counterable...or if I net the correct gamble , I am still force to guess correctly for bonus damage. Example being Jacky's elbow which nets me a +8 on Mc..or SDE/yoho which nets me so much more.

For what it's worth, Jacky is hella strong regardless of mindset. I think the problem with my Jacky is without my usual abare mindset, I start to give opponents abit too much respect...n my balls shrink abit too much. Thus, I am constantly playing him with a conflicted mindset, which hurts my game. After all, getting a +8 on Mc is too good~

Regardless...the important thing is still knowing which type of players u can abare against...n which characters when against, you are better off being a moralist...aka Lau vs Akira...anyone vs Lei...

But at the odd occasion, when lau is rushing in with his lunging knife ...it is quite reasonable to gamble after guarding his first two hits....even arcadia highly recommend players to gamble. I mean, if he chooses to throw ETC ETC ETC, ur gamble attack wins him n nets urself a nice phat reward.

If he continues with the third p...worse comes to worst is u eat it n the sweep...

personally..I prefer a abare style. It's how I learn any fighting game to begin with. It's how i discover alot of my funny counter tools. I really do believe that if I have enuff time to press G and can successfuly guard in time..I much rather use the time to initiate an attack thanks.

Plus, the best thing abt being an abare style player is...experiment experiment experiment...

learn heaps of fun n cool new shit that way...

 

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I really do believe that if I have enuff time to press G and can successfuly guard in time..I much rather use the time to initiate an attack thanks.

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For me, I see this way of playing a little differently. Anyone who's ever played me will know that my style of play is definitely abare. However, I'm do not use the traditional reverse nitaku situations to interrupt with a big move, instead I use those oportunities to reverse or inashi my opponent. It's a gamble - timing and guessing need to be right, but over the years I have developed a fairly good sense for it - but the reward is so much more...it's a confidence booster to me when I can guess right throughout the majority of a match, and it's demoralizing to my opponent at the same time...

I'm with you Summ - abare is a lot about fun and experimentation and so much more worthwhile to my VF experience.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Oh please lah, Jacky is a perfect abare character in Evo and still a good one in FT: for one-third damage, which is uncounterable, + with a canned follow-up to make it a little safer

Kage is NOT a good abare character in Evo as he doesn't have any big and fast moves.

 

see...abare is not just abt reverse nitaku all the way...

It's abt what u use to abare, at least for me anyway.

like for Jacky...I prefer to use his b,f p+k or his d+k+g,k.

Kage does not have big fast moves..but he has hella safe moves...making him very good to abare...

matter of personal preference at the end of the day.

But, I do agree that Jacky is a perfect abare character...n like I said in my post (did u finish it? XD)
It's more of my own conflicted mindset that is causing the 'shit to shitter to totally jackshit' player that I am today.

 

Yeah, I'm probably confusing abare with reverse nitaku a bit here, because Kage can attack a lot with relative impugnity through , but he doesn't have any good RN tools.

 

See I don't know if I'm wrong, but I have a very different interpretation of what abare is. Abare is essentially an undisciplined style, that doesn't fall for common tricks.

ie: an abare player often attacks on disadvantage, making him very hard to throw setup.

just because you're agressive and take risks, doesn't mean you're abare, i figure abare players pretty much never worry about frames, unless they do a guaranteed throw.

Like, my brother is the abare god. I shoudl really come down to the arcades in toronto and bring him along (or maybe he should go down and bring me along) , because his style is so undisciplined, the only word i can think of to desrcibe it is "cheap".

He refuses to enter a deeper thinking game and just plays a careless agressive abare. But he is very, very good /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. (not as good as me though )

 

well..a few simple scenarios...

using kage...if you know the opponent is gonna throw u..what will u do?

most ppl will float the opponent.

For myself...definitely f+k+g, or u+k, or d/f k+g, shinshodan, ff+p+k+g etc etc.

With Akira, it's another set of fun abare moves such as QCB+p to Mc raising attacks, to avoid low p etc etc etc.

Abare is not 'undisciplined' style. We know when to properly employ defensive techniques. Most of the risk are very much calculated.

but when a chance comes for us to use our fav moves in relatively fun ways...we cannot help it.

Like myke said..mischievious.

 

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using kage...if you know the opponent is gonna throw u..what will u do?

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Max damage. +, +, at worse.

But the point is, they all take significantly less damage and are much slower (hence, riskier) compared to:

Akira's , SPOD, shoulder ram, knee, double palm
Jacky's , , beat knuckle
Wolf's +, +, knee

Etc. etc. Kage is quite lousy at RN, although he's a bit better with his monster DP in FT.

That's also why despite having a top-tier throwing game and many uncounterable attacks in Evo, at high levels Kage isn't as strong as most people think. Guess for guess, he won't win out against the likes of Akira or Wolf.

 

Ice-9,
are you confused of what reverse nitaku does? You won't get counter hit if you attack out of a throw from negative frames... hence, Jacky cannot use f+k, Wolf cannot use Knee. Even Jacky's d/f,d/f+k is not a good choice because the combo options are aweful on non-counter hits. This is why jacky is just terrible at reverse nitaku, as people have said before. One other thing he could do is b+kg to beat throws, however you are pretty much asking for the biggest counter hit combo in your life if you do it too much.
On the other hand you are seriously discrediting Kage. u/f+kg first of all beats low attacks, and kage can't be comboed if you are hit out of it because he is in the air. His d/f+p again beats another ton of crap...and since it recovers low, you can easily fuzzy guard EVERYTHING... And his d/b+p,p,b+p, this move is so so good in reverse nitaku it's not funny, you take a chuck of life away plus ends in advantage. If the opponent does anything funny like delays or something really slow you get counter hit. And all of these options are completely safe or leave you advantage.. WTF? Lastly, if you really want a ton of damage use Kage's raising knee, you must not have seen kyasao kill people with this cuz it hurts... it hurts like hell.

And you last statement is just plainly retarded. Wolf... let me reverse nitaku with b,f+pk... oh fuck.. i just got hit by ppb+p..

 

I agree with what Shang says but...

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This is why jacky is just terrible at reverse nitaku, as people have said before. One other thing he could do is b+kg to beat throws, however you are pretty much asking for the biggest counter hit combo in your life if you do it too much.

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Don't forget he always has (safe and fast) > heavydown which hits on mC. That's a very good RN tool indeed. If you want fancy stuff you can go for the + hitthrow or the + aswell.

/KiwE (Wolf could always use btw which isn't either mentioned, + hitthrow etc etc).

 

Who says RN only works against throws?

Jacky vs. Lau in Evo. Lau elbows Jacky, Jacky staggers. Lau dashes in to throw Jacky. If he's even a little bit late, will MC. If he's not, you get mC. If he tries to do a low circular, will MC. If Lau delays attacks, will MC. If Lau does nothing, will be blocked and Jacky is uncounterable.

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On the other hand you are seriously discrediting Kage. u/f+kg first of all beats low attacks, and kage can't be comboed if you are hit out of it because he is in the air.

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It won't beat out anything but the slowest (and I mean SLOW) low attacks at negative frames, Kage will just get MCed! Try it out in training mode if you don't believe me. Being open for air combos also means that the simplest, safe attacks, like , can deal a great deal of damage to Kage.

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His d/f+p again beats another ton of crap...and since it recovers low, you can easily fuzzy guard EVERYTHING...

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This move will pretty much lose out to any attack except high attacks at disadvantage, and is useful only against throws. I might as well go for the +. Also, if the opponent delays attacks (as many players are likely to do nowadays), Kage will STILL get MCed. I've eaten one too many shoulder rams that way.

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And you last statement is just plainly retarded. Wolf... let me reverse nitaku with b,f+pk... oh fuck.. i just got hit by ppb+p..

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Your examples have established that you assume RN always involves throws...well in that case if I KNOW the opponent was going to throw I'd rather have short shoulder than whatever attack Kage has.

And BTW, reports have it that Wolf's retarded short shoulder will go underneath Kage's super punches in FT.

 

Jeff,
I understand you are trying to cover your fuck ups from the last post. Do yourself a favor and scroll up, you replied specifically to the question:
"if you know the opponent is gonna throw u..what will u do?"
to which you named jacky's f+k and wolf's f+k as a response. Perhaps someone else can educate ice-9 why you shouldn't do those 2 moves in the above situation.
On your example of Jacky coming out of stagger... why would people want to do f+k out of stagger is beyond me. Why don't you just hold up a sign that says please MC me?
95% of the times people talking about reverse nitaku they are talking about against throws, the other 5% involves d+p or p if you think they are going to delay attack. Only a moron, like yourself would use wolf's shrm from a disadvantage situation when you think an attack is coming? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Don't be an asshole, the question was:

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using kage...if you know the opponent is gonna throw u..what will u do?

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To which I replied with Kage.

Then, I made it to a broader RN question with the other characters. See: "But the point is, they all take significantly less damage and are much slower (hence, riskier) compared to"

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On your example of Jacky coming out of stagger... why would people want to do f+k out of stagger is beyond me. Why don't you just hold up a sign that says please MC me?

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I already explained why in the above. If you don't get it, I don't see why I should belabour the point. Are you arguing for argument's sake or are you trying to be an asshole again?

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95% of the times people talking about reverse nitaku they are talking about against throws, the other 5% involves d+p or p if you think they are going to delay attack.

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You would use or to beat delay attacks? Whoa, how nice of you. Trying to give your opponent a handicap, I get it...

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Only a moron, like yourself would use wolf's shrm from a disadvantage situation when you think an attack is coming?

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And if you know that short shoulder will beat out your super punches?

 

jeff.. if your kage is at -6 and you are guessing a delay attack is coming what will you do?

 

Call your momma? I don't know...depends, who am I playing against?

 

I think what he's trying to say is that and are the major tools to use against a delayattack (as they're your fastest). Look at the concept of ARE as an exampel in which you cansel your failed evade into a mostly (not necessarely but the best cause it has the hightest shot at MC'ing a delay attack due to it's speed) if you happened to evade wrongfully. And if you're referring to FT which we'll hopefully all soon play - it would be a much better thing to do a or if you believe in a delayed attack probably and only get YC'ed instead of RC'd or worse with your launcher to beat a delayed launcher don't you think?

/KiwE

 

I think in the trade-off between risk and reward, you and Shang prefer low risk and low reward....